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Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberQuarl
    Quarl
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    28 Apr '18 13:29
    This is their reasoning! Sometimes I can’t believe the words I’m reading.
    ======
    Doctor: Starving Alfie Evans to Death “Is Not the Killing of A Child,” It’s Just “Redirecting Care”

    Does anyone remember the NHS putting on a song and dance routine to open the London Olympics? It was a sorry propaganda spectacle, and it highlighted how much the UK socialized medicine system sucks. Alfie isn't the first and sadly, he will not be the last. Are you next?

    This article barely captures the disgust of it all.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2183440/London-2012-opening-ceremony-The-night-set-NHS-reform-years.html

    And to this day, the NHS is a disgusting nag which should be put down, not even behind the barn.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
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    52851
    28 Apr '18 15:20
    Originally posted by @quarl
    This is their reasoning! Sometimes I can’t believe the words I’m reading.
    ======
    Doctor: Starving Alfie Evans to Death “Is Not the Killing of A Child,” It’s Just “Redirecting Care”

    Does anyone remember the NHS putting on a song and dance routine to open the London Olympics? It was a sorry propaganda spectacle, and it highlighted how much the UK socialize ...[text shortened]... And to this day, the NHS is a disgusting nag which should be put down, not even behind the barn.
    What would you have done with a brain dead infant? What good does it do the child if he is not even there mentally to have him on decades of life support? You think maybe in 30 years medical science will have advanced so much he can be brought up to being a thinking adult?
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    28 Apr '18 21:061 edit
    Originally posted by @quarl
    This is their reasoning! Sometimes I can’t believe the words I’m reading.
    ======
    Doctor: Starving Alfie Evans to Death “Is Not the Killing of A Child,” It’s Just “Redirecting Care”

    Does anyone remember the NHS putting on a song and dance routine to open the London Olympics? It was a sorry propaganda spectacle, and it highlighted how much the UK socialize ...[text shortened]... And to this day, the NHS is a disgusting nag which should be put down, not even behind the barn.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/alfie-evans-parents-activists

    "Alfie Evans’ parents needed help. The vultures came instead.
    As if the heartbreak over the fate of their son was not enough, the vulnerable couple
    became the focus of activists with their own agendas."
    --Gaby Hinsliff

    "Alfie’s parents have fought like tigers both in and out of court and no parent – even those
    whose sympathies in this case are with the doctors facing death threats for doing what they
    honestly believe is the right thing – will begrudge the family their right to clutch in their grief
    at every straw there is.

    But the high court judge is surely right to question the motives of some of those extending straws.
    The most disturbing aspect of this case is the sense that it is now being exploited by those who see
    Alfie not as a desperately sick little boy, but as an expedient means of advancing their own ideological cause."

    "Others have sought to use the case to score cheap, wildly inaccurate points over
    healthcare reform in the US; to claim this is where “socialised medicine” gets you, when
    without the NHS and its daily miracle of providing treatment free at the point of use,
    Alfie’s parents would now be struggling with medical bills running into the millions."

    Stephen Hawking made the point of praising the NHS for his 'excellent health care' and
    stating that he supported the principle of universal health care.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    28 Apr '18 21:121 edit
    Originally posted by @sonhouse to Quarl
    What would you have done with a brain dead infant? What good does it do the child if he is not even there mentally to have him on decades of life support? You think maybe in 30 years medical science will have advanced so much he can be brought up to being a thinking adult?
    "What good does it do the child if he is not even there mentally to have him on decades of life support?"
    --Sonhouse

    It would not help the child, but it could help more important people, such as the 'pro-life'
    activists who could exploit the spectacle to raise money and promote their own agendas.

    In some other cultures and even in an earlier generation in the UK, people are or were
    more capable of gracefully accepting the reality of their young children's deaths.

    In my own family, a child died young of a health condition that could be not treated at that time.
    Her surviving siblings have said that they were not traumatized at all by that inevitable death.
    She was a nice girl of about ordinary abilities and interests, and we don't attempt to deceive
    ourselves or others into believing that she was or would have been anything more.
  5. Subscriberdivegeester
    Leave Means Leave
    Voting not marching!
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
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    88819
    28 Apr '18 22:40
    Originally posted by @quarl
    This is their reasoning! Sometimes I can’t believe the words I’m reading.
    ======
    Doctor: Starving Alfie Evans to Death “Is Not the Killing of A Child,” It’s Just “Redirecting Care”

    Does anyone remember the NHS putting on a song and dance routine to open the London Olympics? It was a sorry propaganda spectacle, and it highlighted how much the UK socialize ...[text shortened]... And to this day, the NHS is a disgusting nag which should be put down, not even behind the barn.
    A least you had the balls to post this under your real username.
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
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    29 Apr '18 22:53
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "What good does it do the child if he is not even there mentally to have him on decades of life support?"
    --Sonhouse

    It would not help the child, but it could help more important people, such as the 'pro-life'
    activists who could exploit the spectacle to raise money and promote their own agendas.

    In some other cultures and even in an earlier gene ...[text shortened]... pt to deceive
    ourselves or others into believing that she was or would have been anything more.
    Duchy: In my own family, a child died young of a health condition that could be not treated at that time.
    Her surviving siblings have said that they were not traumatized at all by that inevitable death.
    She was a nice girl of about ordinary abilities and interests, and we don't attempt to deceive
    ourselves or others into believing that she was or would have been anything more.

    Good point; at the next funeral of a young child I attend, I'll make sure to request from the parents copies of their school grades, IQ scores and relevant recommendations from their teachers so I can adjust my mourning level accordingly.
  7. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
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    2120
    29 Apr '18 23:35
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Duchy: In my own family, a child died young of a health condition that could be not treated at that time.
    Her surviving siblings have said that they were not traumatized at all by that inevitable death.
    She was a nice girl of about ordinary abilities and interests, and we don't attempt to deceive
    ourselves or others into believing that she was or ...[text shortened]... and relevant recommendations from their teachers so I can adjust my mourning level accordingly.
    The abusive troll No1Marauder's so obsessed with hating me that he severely
    misunderstands what I wrote and proceeds sneeringly to attack members of my family.

    First of all, this child in my family died before I was born, so I have no remembrance of her.
    She was born with a heart defect, which was not severe enough to kill her immediately.
    The doctors could not predict how long she would live, but they doubted that she would
    survive until adulthood. So what should be done with her?

    According to my family, we attempted to give her as normal of a life as possible, though
    she had to be shielded from some potentially dangerous situations for her delicate heart.
    Otherwise, she received no special treatment that her siblings did not. As far as I know,
    she sensed that she was somehow a bit different, but I don't know if she ever was informed
    that the doctors believed that she was 'living on borrowed time'. We believe that she
    was made about as happy as she could be for as long as she could be during her life.
    What more could we have done for her?

    So when she (as a schoolgirl) died, it was an event that the family had been expecting for years
    and had grown accustomed to. Her siblings said that they were not traumatized that she
    was gone and had ceased to suffer. They were glad to have known her for as long as they did.
    The words that I heard were "Even though we had her for only a short time, she was ..."
    Then life went on, and she was rather quickly forgotten, perhaps in a way that may seem
    callous to contemporary emotion-laden judgmental Americans.

    Why should my family have been shocked or traumatized when what had been predicted
    by the doctors for many years finally came to pass?

    As a judgmental ethnocentric American, No1Marauder has misunderstood what I wrote.
    In contrast to some contemporary Americans, my family never would pretend that the early
    death of its child should have much, if any, importance to people beyond our family itself.
    (Some American parents might say, when their child of above average talent dies, that
    the world lost a 'genius' or a potential Mozart or a potential Michael Jordan, etc.)
    If the child truly had been a budding Mozart, then more people outside our family may
    have grieved, but our family's sense of loss would have been the same--neither more
    nor less, contrary to what No1Marauder believes.

    And my family really could not care less about the arrogant troll No1Marauder's ignorant
    sneering at how our culture traditionally has observed its rituals of passing.
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