5-4 decision: You can't lie on government forms

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
Buying a gun for someone who can't legally purchase one obviously should be illegal, but buying one for someone who CAN should not be a crime. I feel bad for the person that was prosecuted, he really didn't do anything wrong.
Used to be you could buy a gun as a gift and present it to someone before the government started getting so anal about gun purchases.

It isn't. All you have to do is say on the appropriate form that you're buying it as a gift for a third party.

EDIT: Reading the decision, I'm not even sure you have to say you're buying it as a gift - if you are, you are considered the buyer. From the form:

You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It isn't. All you have to do is say on the appropriate form that you're buying it as a gift for a third party.

No , my wife wanted to buy me a handgun for Christmas a few years ago, the gun shop wouldn't go for it. (and this was in Arizona where anybody can buy and carry a gun) .
End result, she had to pay for it but I had to go to the gun shop and fill out the Federal paperwork on it in my name to take it out of the store.
Do you have any guns Mr. Marauder?

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
No , my wife wanted to buy me a handgun for Christmas a few years ago, the gun shop wouldn't go for it. (and this was in Arizona where anybody can buy and carry a gun) .
End result, she had to pay for it but I had to go to the gun shop and fill out the Federal paperwork on it in my name to take it out of the store.

The gun shop either didn't understand the law or had more stringent policies in place than the law mandates. The form and the instructions are rather clear.

EDIT: Normally I would answer a question like that with NOYFB but I'm not feeling as confrontational right now. At present, no but I have owned various types of rifles in the past.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The gun shop either didn't understand the law or had more stringent policies in place than the law mandates. The form and the instructions are rather clear.

I see, the gun shop didn't know the law. You should get a job there and set them straight.
Even if you are right, can you blame them for making sure they didn't cross any lines that the government might take exception to?

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
I see, the gun shop didn't know the law. You should get a job there and set them straight.
Even if you are right, can you blame them for making sure they didn't cross any lines that the government might take exception to?

While it is illegal to purchase firearms for someone who wouldn't be able to buy one legally (called a "straw purchase"😉, "a gun can be purchased as a gift for someone who is not precluded from ownership of firearms." How does a gun shop owner know if that person really is okay? "You can't really know. A person can say he's buying a gun for his wife and you just can't know. It's very complicated. But we suggest they bring the wife in. We push for people to do stuff the right way. It's kind of a gray area."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/15/firearm-sales-how-to-buy-a-gun-in-arizona.html


I gave two possibilities and it looks like gun shops in Arizona are being extra careful. Good for them.

Originally posted by no1marauder
While it is illegal to purchase firearms for someone who wouldn't be able to buy one legally (called a "straw purchase"😉, "a gun can be purchased as a gift for someone who is not precluded from ownership of firearms." How does a gun shop owner know if that person really is okay? "You can't really know. A person can say he's buying a gun for his wife and ...[text shortened]... two possibilities and it looks like gun shops in Arizona are being extra careful. Good for them.

You just talked out of both sides of your mouth claiming each side of the argument thank you very much.

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
You just talked out of both sides of your mouth claiming each side of the argument thank you very much.

I'm sorry you find it so difficult to understand my points, but I did no such thing. I agreed with the ruling but also pointed out that the law does not do what you claimed i.e. prevent someone from buying a handgun as a gift. The case involved someone sending his nephew a check for $400 to buy a Glock19 (in the memo section of the check it said "Glock19 handgun"😉 for the uncle. That makes the uncle the real buyer. On the other hand in the example you gave, your wife would have been the buyer but the gun shop had more stringent requirements than the Feds. If you don't like how that gun shop does business, find another one.

Originally posted by no1marauder
While it is illegal to purchase firearms for someone who wouldn't be able to buy one legally (called a "straw purchase"😉, "a gun can be purchased as a gift for someone who is not precluded from ownership of firearms." How does a gun shop owner know if that person really is okay? "You can't really know. A person can say he's buying a gun for his wife and ...[text shortened]... two possibilities and it looks like gun shops in Arizona are being extra careful. Good for them.

Question: It seems to me that the law does not make illegal knowingly or unknowingly giving of a gun to someone who cannot legally possess it. That is, it will not prosecute the giver of the gun for giving it, will it? Instead, it makes illegal the acceptance and possession of the gift by such a person, and the law will prosecute the acceptor. ??

The gun shop might have separate laws (I don't know), covering their taking registration information from a buyer who they have reason to believe will not be the possessor of the gun. A reason to believe would be the buyer's statement to that effect.

Originally posted by JS357
Question: It seems to me that the law does not make illegal knowingly or unknowingly giving of a gun to someone who cannot legally possess it. That is, it will not prosecute the giver of the gun for giving it, will it? Instead, it makes illegal the acceptance and possession of the gift by such a person, and the law will prosecute the acceptor. ??

The gun sh ...[text shortened]... be the possessor of the gun. A reason to believe would be the buyer's statement to that effect.

Actually it does. From Scalia's dissent:

the Act provides that no one may “sell or otherwise dispose of” a firearm to a person who he knows or has reasonable cause to believe falls within one of nine prohibited categories (such as felons, fugitives, illegal-drug users, and the mentally ill). §922(d).

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/06/supreme-court-knocks-down-nra-claims-straw-buyers


i repeat the key point: 4 judges think one should be allowed to lie on government forms, in this case, about who is the actual buyer.

A better question would be, should the government be allowed to lie to us.

I'm guessing SCOTUS would defend their right to lie as well. 😛

Originally posted by whodey
A better question would be, should the government be allowed to lie to us.

I'm guessing SCOTUS would defend their right to lie as well. 😛

a question that has no relevance to this discussion.

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
Try living somewhere else and get back to us on how great it is.
Africa/Asia/Central-South America/ China/Middle East yep things are just peachy compared to the Big Bad Evil US.

You're from Romania? And you say the citizens of the USA are being abused by the government?

What do you have to brag about?

you two made a stupid claim and i countered it. what you are doing now is a feeble attempt to divert. whatever happened in romania or anywhere else for that matter doesn't influence the truth of what the situation in the US was (and to a lesser degree still is).

there are tons of countries worse off than the us, and there are quite a few which are better in many areas than it. some of those are substantially better. all of that had no relevance to your claim that the US of the past was awesome which grant you, it was if you were the correct shade of white, had the correct genitals and was in the right social class.