@Palynka

Originally posted by Seitse
Would you borrow if you would have the cash?

Unless you have the reserves to guarantee it,
penny by penny, it is an illusion. Borrowing is
done in expectation of something future, that
may or may not happen, and that converts it
in a gamble. But gambler and the one who
accepts the gamble are in a situation where they
would not be if they would have the resources
themselves.

What is the guarantee a country gives when it
issues a bond?

It's not an "illusion", it's transferring your funds across time. You may save now to have more later or save later to have more now. Both are "uncertain", you can also save and not have what you expected tomorrow. If I'm young and with a promising career why should I not anticipate the future income? Seems pretty normal to me.

As for the guarantee, it's simple. It gives none.

Originally posted by Palynka
It's not an "illusion", it's transferring your funds across time. You may save now to have more later or save later to have more now. Both are "uncertain", you can also save and not have what you expected tomorrow. If I'm young and with a promising career why should I not anticipate the future income? Seems pretty normal to me.

As for the guarantee, it's simple. It gives none.

Yup, that is the common wisdom.

But we're not here to repeat the obvious or what the theory books
say, right? The fun is in analyzing. Is borrowing and lending mere
speculation?

Unless there is a valid, cash convertible guarantee behind it, it is.

Now the question is: what is speculation and what value it adds in
a solid, long lasting and tangible economic life?

Originally posted by Seitse
Yup, that is the common wisdom.

But we're not here to repeat the obvious or what the theory books
say, right? The fun is in analyzing. Is borrowing and lending mere
speculation?

Unless there is a valid, cash convertible guarantee behind it, it is.

Now the question is: what is speculation and what value it adds in
a solid, long lasting and tangible economic life?

Why does the guarantee make any difference in whether borrowing is an evil or not? Maybe I'm missing your point, but I honestly don't understand what you're saying.

Speculation is a meaningless word with an emotional charge which is used for rhetorical purposes whenever it is convenient.

Originally posted by Palynka
Why does the guarantee make any difference in whether borrowing is an evil or not? Maybe I'm missing your point, but I honestly don't understand what you're saying.

Speculation is a meaningless word with an emotional charge which is used for rhetorical purposes whenever it is convenient.

Ok, let's go step by step:

Why do you borrow money?

Originally posted by Seitse
Ok, let's go step by step:

Why do you borrow money?

Because I want to anticipate income from the future to the present.

Originally posted by Palynka
Because I want to anticipate income from the future to the present.

Would you borrow money if you would have the needed money?

Originally posted by Seitse
Would you borrow money if you would have the needed money?

By definition if I had the "needed" money, I wouldn't.

Originally posted by Palynka
By definition if I had the "needed" money, I wouldn't.

So why not wait until you gather the needed money instead of borrowing it?

Originally posted by Seitse
So why not wait until you gather the needed money instead of borrowing it?

Because I'd prefer to have it now and pay with my future income and am willing to pay a premium for it.

Originally posted by Seitse
So why not wait until you gather the needed money instead of borrowing it?

Buy new house money needed now £400,000
Money in bank £40,000
Anticipated future income £80,000 per annum
Borrow money from bank to buy house
Alternatively save £20,000 per year and in 18 years have enough money to buy house
18 years time house now costs £1,000,000

Yep I have £400,000 in bank but had I borrowed the £400,000 I would now own a property worth £1,000,000 but have no money in bank.

Guess I am glad I borrowed rather than saved.

Originally posted by Palynka
Because I'd prefer to have it now

So, is borrowing proper of impatient, spoiled people who
want unnecessary things right here and right now? 🙂

Originally posted by Seitse
So, is borrowing proper of impatient, spoiled people who
want unnecessary things right here and right now? 🙂

Well, you are the one making value judgements based on a sliver of information, so it seems to me you're the shallow one.

Originally posted by Palynka
you're the shallow one.

And proud of it! 🙂

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13107620

So, Palynka, the Finnish right wing may push for
a veto of the bailout for Portugal. What are your
thoughts?

Originally posted by Seitse
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13107620

So, Palynka, the Finnish right wing may push for
a veto of the bailout for Portugal. What are your
thoughts?

I think you're trolling.