Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    01 Apr '16 20:18
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that it's 'not a matter of choice'
    whether or not someone believes a religion is true?
    Yes. That is what I am saying.

    I know some people who were brought up as Muslims and sincerely believed that Islam is true. Then they stopped believing that Islam is true and made a choice to change their religion.
    Did they make a choice to stop believing or merely make a choice to stop pretending to believe after they stopped believing?

    I also know some Muslim women who don't insist on wearing hijab all the time in public.
    So do I. But that does not mean that there are not Muslim women who believe that it is a requirement of their religion ie that there will be dire consequences for them should they fail to wear it. In such cases I would not say they are choosing to wear it any more than an adult chooses to wear clothes when they go out on the street. You could choose to walk around naked, but there would be consequences.
    If she feels strongly enough about it that she wears it during ballet practice, then it seems that it is important to her. Now it is entirely possible that she is doing it for social reasons not religious ones but I am not a mind reader so I give her the benefit of the doubt.

    My stance is that if specific clothing is required for a job then an employer may refuse to hire someone who refuses to wear the clothing. If specific clothing is not required for the job, then employers should not discriminate. In this case a good argument can be made that specific clothing is a requirement for the job and it is up to the ballet company to decide whether or not to hire her.
    I do not think the ballet school should restrict her and only offer advice.
  2. The Catbird's Seat
    Joined
    21 Oct '06
    Moves
    2598
    01 Apr '16 20:29
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Yes. That is what I am saying.

    [b]I know some people who were brought up as Muslims and sincerely believed that Islam is true. Then they stopped believing that Islam is true and made a choice to change their religion.

    Did they make a choice to stop believing or merely make a choice to stop pretending to believe after they stopped believing?

    ...[text shortened]... or not to hire her.
    I do not think the ballet school should restrict her and only offer advice.
    It is a bit like asking if she could work as a stripper. Some jobs require duties and dress that don't appeal to certain religious sensitivities. It isn't up to employers to make those jobs fit religious standards. Those who the job offends, ought just avoid them.

    Easy example is the police. In most of the US, a police officer has to carry a gun. That would eliminate that job for any pacifist who doesn't believe in carrying arms or using physical force.
  3. Joined
    27 Dec '05
    Moves
    143878
    01 Apr '16 20:35
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    If Stephanie Kurlow ever appears as a ballerina in the UK, then Phil3000 could encourage
    local BNP (British National Party) people to object to her being allowed to enter the UK.
    I think the BNP are old hat big D don't you ?
    You've still got combat 18 and the national front or even the EDL to whip up or failing that Mosleys black shirts .
  4. Standard membersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52874
    02 Apr '16 00:43
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "Of course dancing is a serious business."
    --Sonhouse

    Sonhouse apparently took KazetNagorra's comment *literally*, which is his misinterpretation.
    KazetNagorra has confirmed that I correctly interpreted his comment 'serious business' as sarcasm.
    KazetNagorra has confirmed that he does *not* take dance (including professional) seriously.

    So Sonhouse and KazetNagorra evidently disagree.
    Yes, I didn't expect that sarcasm from him. My bad, as they say.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    46035
    02 Apr '16 06:52
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    But if she could complete a full performance satisfactorily
    in hijab, then the issue becomes an aesthetic one.
    An aesthetic issue is a pretty big deal in an art form wouldn't you say?

    Good luck to the girl in her career but she
    shouldn't expect to get any parts in traditional ballet.
  6. Standard membersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52874
    04 Apr '16 10:37
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Yes, you have expressed some of what I have been thinking.

    If I were hiring ballerinas, then I would prefer to hire another equally talented ballerina
    ahead of Stephanie Kurlow because that would avoid the potential distraction and the
    inflexibility of assigning roles to her. Only if Stephanie Kurlow were exceptional enough
    to perform as a soloist with distinction, would I consider hiring her.
    You can imagine the difficulty in choreographing a dance where the scene is say in the Alps and the other dancers are in Swiss garb and here is this one in Hijab. Just wouldn't fit the scene.

    Or like Choreographing 'Oklahoma', you can imagine how appropriate a dancer in Hijab would be in that scene.

    If would of course work if you were doing a ballet of Syrian refugees in a camp somewhere but how many of those could you do?
  7. Joined
    13 Mar '07
    Moves
    33358
    04 Apr '16 11:05
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You can imagine the difficulty in choreographing a dance where the scene is say in the Alps and the other dancers are in Swiss garb and here is this one in Hijab. Just wouldn't fit the scene.
    Before the Islamic Revolution, Tehran had a thriving opera house. The head conductor of the city's symphony orchestra, Alexander Rahbari, wants to restart opera performance in Tehran.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/06/tehrans-reborn-symphony-orchestra-an-ovation-before-playing-a-note

    Interestingly, the opera he singled out for performance was Puccini's Suor Angelica. Presumably this was chosen because of its setting in a convent, which would allow the cast to perform plausibly in hijab!

    Having said that, modern opera and ballet productions frequently ignore the original stage and set directions, so it would be easy to find an excuse, should one wish to, to allow a Muslim performer to maintain her hijab.
  8. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10182
    04 Apr '16 11:11
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Stephanie Kurlow, an Australian girl (age 14), has received a scholarship
    to help her realize her dream of becoming a professional ballerina.
    In 2010 her parents (Australian father, Russian mother) converted to Islam
    and their children followed suit. That's when Stephanie stopped dancing.
    But she eventually found a way to make her love of dancing comp ...[text shortened]... perform in hijab?
    Should Stephanie Kurlow be encouraged or discouraged from pursuing her dream?
    Women have no rights in Islam.

    Maybe they did not read the fine print at the bottom of the religious tract.

    Well too late now. If they decide to renounce their Islamic faith they will all be killed.
  9. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    04 Apr '16 13:341 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You can imagine the difficulty in choreographing a dance where the scene is say in the Alps
    She could dress as a nun in Sound of Music. Nuns also cover their hair you know.

    If would of course work if you were doing a ballet of Syrian refugees in a camp somewhere but how many of those could you do?
    If you look up ballet pictures there are quite a lot of fancy headdresses. I already mentioned 'cats'. She might not be completely out of a job.
  10. Account suspended
    Joined
    02 Jan '15
    Moves
    10189
    04 Apr '16 15:19
    What's next, gymnastics and competitive swimming in a burnoose with a blanket over their head?
  11. Standard membersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52874
    04 Apr '16 15:53
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    What's next, gymnastics and competitive swimming in a burnoose with a blanket over their head?
    That way, a guy could hide the fact of his sex and compete against women, in stealth mode.
  12. Account suspended
    Joined
    02 Jan '15
    Moves
    10189
    04 Apr '16 16:33
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    That way, a guy could hide the fact of his sex and compete against women, in stealth mode.
    Not to mention a buncha dynamite sticks.
  13. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    05 Apr '16 21:091 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    An aesthetic issue is a pretty big deal in an art form wouldn't you say?
    Good luck to the girl in her career but she shouldn't expect to get any parts in traditional ballet.
    If I were in charge of a Western ballet company, I would consider hiring Stephanie Kurlow
    only if she could perform as an extraordinarily talented soloist. Only exceptional ability might
    be enough to override the distraction of hijab and the inflexibility it would cause in casting.
    I doubt that Stephanie Kurlow would get hired unless she can prove that she's clearly
    technically better than every other ballerina competing for the same position.
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    05 Apr '16 21:16
    Originally posted by Teinosuke to Sonhouse
    Before the Islamic Revolution, Tehran had a thriving opera house. The head conductor of the city's symphony orchestra, Alexander Rahbari, wants to restart opera performance in Tehran.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/06/tehrans-reborn-symphony-orchestra-an-ovation-before-playing-a-note

    Interestingly, the opera he singled out for ...[text shortened]... e easy to find an excuse, should one wish to, to allow a Muslim performer to maintain her hijab.
    In October 2015, the 'Ashura Opera' was performed in Tehran.

    I believe that it's better in some (strict) Islamic societies for women to be allowed to
    perform in hijab rather than not being allowed to perform at all.
  15. The Catbird's Seat
    Joined
    21 Oct '06
    Moves
    2598
    05 Apr '16 22:02
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    If I were in charge of a Western ballet company, I would consider hiring Stephanie Kurlow
    only if she could perform as an extraordinarily talented soloist. Only exceptional ability might
    be enough to override the distraction of hijab and the inflexibility it would cause in casting.
    I doubt that Stephanie Kurlow would get hired unless she can prove that she's clearly
    technically better than every other ballerina competing for the same position.
    If you were in charge of any ballet company, your ideas would differ from those you now hold as an outsider. I may be waiting in vain, but I would like to hear from someone who actually produces ballet productions. Most performance art is based on conformity, not people's self expression.
Back to Top