This one's for RBHill.
Playing Jesus' Advocate...
Alcoholism is a horrible disease, not a sin. Alcoholism can also be cured. At least temporarily. And as good as Alcoholics Anonymous is, I am one who believes that junkies and alcoholics CAN find a more permanent cure through religion. I am willing to bet that becoming a born-again Christian does more good for alcoholics and junkies than any state or province sponsored support group can.
This may be a bit off-topic but it feels good to think positive about both sides of the spectrum once and a while.
Originally posted by nemesioLike Starrman said drinking is a weakness, God uses weaknesses that people have to come to Jesus to show that He is real by healing them.
But these people in your prayer group, who are saved, still
have problems, right? They are still sinners, right?
So an alcoholic can be saved, as long as he prays to Christ
sincerely for healing, right?
Nemesio
Originally posted by StarrmanIf you read your Bible it says satan is the Prince of this world and we are all trapped under him, satan is the one that traps us in our sins and addictions and then God comes in and breaks those addictions.
So god makes people weak so they come to him for their medicine? Talk about creating your own market....
Originally posted by RBHILLPlaying Satan's advocate...
Like Starrman said drinking is a weakness, God uses weaknesses that people have to come to Jesus to show that He is real by healing them.
Actually, Charismatic and Evangelistic Christians exploit those weaknesses by using guilt and suggestion increasing the vulnerability of a potential convert. Then once the fish has been hooked (to use a Biblical allegory), the church community bombards the person to provide a sense of acceptance and security to keep them in the fold. Classic cult conversion. And it works better than any AA or NA support group!
And while it may work for some and make a lot of people feel better about themselves, there should be no argument that those tactics and methods are morally hypocritical and ethically wrong.
Originally posted by kirksey957Kirksey: " ...... it needs to be said that alcoholics are spiritual people in that they are seeking a way to end pain, albeit a destructive way to end pain."
It is a disease to be treated, yet it is the most unusual of diseases in that it effects one's physical, relational and even spiritual life. Haviing said that, it needs to be said that alcoholics are spiritual people in that they are seeking a way to end pain, albeit a destructive way to end pain.
Indeed an alcoholic is trying to reduce pain. We know (?) that this way to reduce pain is wrong. Why ? Because in the end it will increase the pain, the suffering, instead of reducing it.
Human beings want to find ways to reduce all sorts of pain. There are correct ways to reduce pain and incorrect (= ineffective) ways.
One popular way we are choosing to diminish pain in our days (again) is the way of killing, destroying, oneself or the other. One chooses to kill the (assumed) carrier of the pain instead of the pain itself.
Originally posted by nemesioI think we know that I am no fan of religion, but I think that is what religion is all about. The belief that faith can overcome things that aren't possible through normal means.
Does this mean that, if I have cerebral palsy, and I pray
really hard and love Jesus a lot, He will cure me?
Nemesio
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesBeing an alcoholic, I just have an opinion based on experience.
Is an addiction to alcohol primarily a sin or primarily a disease?
For the purpose of this thread, let as grant that it was a sin for
the alcoholic to start drinking knowing that it could lead to addiction,
so that we don't hav ...[text shortened]... marily a sickness to be healed, or
a sin to be punished?
Dr. S
Alcoholism is a "condition" that results when an alcohol molecule binds in yet undefined "unnatural" ways to pleasure seats in the neurons of the brain. I have no idea if this is provable science. It just feels right.
I love to be drunk. I and Shavvy have much to agree to on this. Perhaps the only subject in the forums we can agree on.
So then you are drunk. If you abuse people or yourself you are committing a sin. Just like all sin. A sin is defined here as "pain given to others" so that you can enjoy being drunk. It happens. All drunks are sinners.
It can be defined as a desease, I suppose. But a disease of a mind trying to reject pleasure in lieu of sobriety seems to be a disease with no end but the end of pleasure.
Sad.
Oh well. The real key FOR ME... and don't come crying to me that this is just wrong and thay one must repent or go stone sober forever... Is to do no harm. And to limit pleasure to "events" that are spaced weeks apart. Not daily.
I do this by ONLY getting drunk when I can arrange to be alone. No kids around. No spouse. And ESPECIALLY no grandkids. Ever.
RHP members are a cat of a different stripe. Sorry. You are it. I can just let you all have it!😕😲😵
Originally posted by RBHILLYou, my friend, are a member of what I like to call "The Fun Police"
I would say it is a sin because you are letting the Alcohol control your life.
They've had their way with smokers (I am a non-smoker btw) and, mark my words, they will turn on us drinkers next. "The Fun Police" are a greater threat to the world than OBL and GWB combined.....
Mark
Originally posted by nemesio
That isn't what I asked.
You said that someone is a sinner because alcohol controls their life.
I'm asking having a phobia or cerebral palsy makes a person a sinner
because it controls their life.
Nemesio
Semantics. Ofcourse you pick on the easiest target, alas perhaps that makes you feel better.
Alcholism is self inflicted ,yet always with a way out. The extent to which alcholism controls one's life is how it ruins and eventually kills the person suffering from this addiction. Not only does it affect that person, but all who care about him/her. It is not very 'loving' to put friends and family through that problem.
Originally posted by pcaspian
Semantics. Ofcourse you pick on the easiest target, alas perhaps that makes you feel better.
No, I make the comment in the hopes that he improves
his semantics. When a person makes a claim on behalf
of God, then he absolutely ought to get it 100% right and
be prepared to defend it. RBHill's claim is demonstrably
unjustifiable; if he is going to preach about the nature of
God, he has that responsibility to do it 'correctly.'
I am sure that RBHill does not appreciate your calling him
an 'easy target.'
Originally posted by pcaspian
Alcholism is self inflicted ,yet always with a way out. The extent to which alcholism controls one's life is how it ruins and eventually kills the person suffering from this addiction. Not only does it affect that person, but all who care about him/her. It is not very 'loving' to put friends and family through that problem.
One doesn't 'choose' to become an alcoholic, neither
does one 'become' one at a discrete moment in time.
An addiction doesn't magically appear, nor does it
magically disappear. It is something that requires a
lot of help, professional and, for some, spiritual. The
notion of there 'always being a way out,' as you say is
wildly over-simplified and insulting to alcoholics, as if
a person 'chooses' to be addicted. Yes, there are life
choices involved, but it is vastly more difficult than that.
I wonder if you believe people 'choose' to be depressed,
or 'choose' to have obsessive-compulsive disorders. I
wonder if you think these are sin, since these 'chosen'
behaviors have a negative impact on family and friends.
I don't dispute that alcoholism is a bad thing, that it
hurts families, friends and self. Please don't insinuate
that I feel differently. However, your oversimplification
that 'alcoholism is sin, therefore one should 'choose' not
to be an alcoholic' is, I believe, insulting, based in ignorance
about a medical understanding of the disease, and
destructive and misleading to those who may be alcoholics
reading your post.
Nemesio
Originally posted by nemesio
Originally posted by pcaspian
No, I make the comment in the hopes that he improves
his semantics. When a person makes a claim on behalf
of God, then he absolutely ought to get it 100% right and
be prepared to defend it. RBHill's claim is demonstrably
unjustifiable; if he is going to preach about the nature of
God, he has that responsibility to do it 'correctly.'
You have little interest in hearing RB's opinion, only to prove his view incorrect. He is an easy target due to his poor english. RB is not supporting a generic 'God', he is supporting the view of the Christian God, as documented in the Bible. If you do not support his view, or renounce scriptures in the Bible, so be it, but specify that you will discuss this in light of a 'generic' God, not a Christian god.
One doesn't 'choose' to become an alcoholic, neither
does one 'become' one at a discrete moment in time.
An addiction doesn't magically appear, nor does it
magically disappear.
Alcholism is not something you 'slip' into, it takes a concerted effort on the part of the victim. The term the Bible uses is not an 'alchoholic' , but a drunkard. Perhaps you believe them to be the same, I do not. A drunkard does not neccesarily have to be an alchoholic, but someone that regularly becomes drunk. Ofcourse we can have a bearded man argument over what constitutes a drunkard then, but that is futile and as such, can only be judged by God. Let us just say that once saved, the life of a drunkard will not appeal to a Christian.
I wonder if you believe people 'choose' to be depressed,
or 'choose' to have obsessive-compulsive disorders. I
wonder if you think these are sin, since these 'chosen'
behaviors have a negative impact on family and friends.
Why would I ? People 'choose' to become addicted to cigarettes and alchohol. The risks are accepted before consumption.
However, your oversimplification that 'alcoholism is sin, therefore one should 'choose' not to be an alcoholic' is, I believe, insulting...
I doubdt your sincerity in posts such as these. I'd like to think that your aim is not solely to attempt to make me look like 'the bad guy'.
Lets analyse the context of this debate..
Nemesio:
I'm asking having a phobia or cerebral palsy makes a person a sinner
because it controls their life.
Pcaspian
Alcholism is self inflicted ,yet always with a way out.
Thus I comment on the difference between a self inflicted dependancy (Alcoholism) and a genetic dissease such as 'cerebral palsy' and your conclusions is that I'm gunning at alchoholics ? The Biblical term used is 'drunkards', not alchoholics. A person that ceases to consume alchohol is not a drunkard. As any recovering alchoholic knows, there is a way out.
..., based in ignorance about a medical understanding of the disease, and destructive and misleading to those who may be alcoholics
reading your post.
I have 2 alchoholic uncles. Both had successfully overcome the dependency, however one had (after 25 years of going dry) fallen back into the habbit. His marriage has ended since then and he has been frequenting prostitutes (many I believe would be infected with HIV). Ofcourse when he's hammered (which happens every time he starts drinking) he is unable to control his behaviour. That usually results in unprotected sex and driving while under the influence. His daughter and wife suffers from his behaviour. I know another drunk who sterilised his wife with a broken bottle when wasted, and another friend who killed 2 in a car accident. Simply put, I don't suffer from ignorance when it comes to addictions and nor do recovered alchoholics. They realise the effect of the dissease and probably why a drunkard would not enter Heaven betten than you or I ever will.
Ofcourse no-one is claiming that alchoholism will be cured instantaneously. Christianity is a lifestyle and salvation a process.
A drunkards may pray sincerely one night and only be approached by God a week later. Belief in God, is a belief that faith can overcome anything.
Originally posted by pcaspian
You have little interest in hearing RB's opinion, only to prove his view incorrect. He is an easy target due to his poor english. RB is not supporting a generic 'God', he is supporting the view of the Christian God, as documented in the Bible. If you do not support his view, or renounce scriptures in the Bible, so be it, but specify that you will discuss this in light of a 'generic' God, not a Christian god.
You have no concept of what I have interest in or not.
Irrespective of RBHill's 'God,' be it generic, Christian,
or otherwise, when he or anyone else makes claims on
behalf of that God that make no sense, I will call them
out, for fear that someone read it and misunderstand it.
You can argue, 'Everyone knows what he meant,' if you
want, but I place the expectation upon people that, if they
are going to represent themselves and especially God,
they better say what they mean.
I'm sorry that you don't like this approach, but I'm not
going to change just because you think that RBHill is
somehow privied to protection because he is, as you
say, 'an easy target.'
Alcholism is not something you 'slip' into, it takes a concerted effort on the part of the victim. The term the Bible uses is not an 'alchoholic' , but a drunkard. Perhaps you believe them to be the same, I do not. A drunkard does not neccesarily have to be an alchoholic, but someone that regularly becomes drunk. Ofcourse we can have a bearded man argument over what constitutes a drunkard then, but that is futile and as such, can only be judged by God. Let us just say that once saved, the life of a drunkard will not appeal to a Christian.
First of all, the thread is about alcoholism; you brought up
the word 'drunkard.' As for it taking a concerted effort
to become an alcoholic, I'd like you to expand upon this.
Do you mean people consciously make an effort to become
an alcoholic?
Why would I ? People 'choose' to become addicted to cigarettes and alchohol. The risks are accepted before consumption.
Cigarettes, perhaps, because the effects of nicotene are rather
immediate and transparent, but alcohol? Many people drink
casually and do not become alcoholics. Many people drink
heavily and frequently and do not become alcoholics. What
do you mean a person 'chooses' to become addicted to alcohol?
However, your oversimplification that 'alcoholism is sin, therefore one should 'choose' not to be an alcoholic' is, I believe, insulting...
I doubdt your sincerity in posts such as these. I'd like to think that your aim is not solely to attempt to make me look like 'the bad guy'.[/b]
Your opinion about my sincerity has no currency with me.
Lets analyse the context of this debate..
Nemesio:
I'm asking having a phobia or cerebral palsy makes a person a sinner
because it controls their life.
Pcaspian
Alcholism is self inflicted ,yet always with a way out.
Thus I comment on the difference between a self inflicted dependancy (Alcoholism) and a genetic dissease such as 'cerebral palsy' and your conclusions is that I'm gunning at alchoholics ?
As I disagree that people 'choose' to become alcoholics, and that
you haven't demonstrated it, yes, my conclusion is that your opinion
is unjust.
As any recovering alchoholic knows, there is a way out.
I do not deny that alcoholism is something that can be overcome, but
the way in which you are presenting this -- like it's as simple as whether
or not I wear a blue tie or a purple tie -- is either disingenous, manipulative,
or ignorant.
..., based in ignorance about a medical understanding of the disease, and destructive and misleading to those who may be alcoholics
reading your post.
I have 2 alchoholic uncles. Both had successfully overcome the dependency, however one had (after 25 years of going dry) fallen back into the habbit. His marriage has ended since then and he has been frequenting prostitutes (many I believe would be infected with HIV). Ofcourse when he's hammered (which happens every time he starts drinking) he is unable to control his behaviour. That usually results in unprotected sex and driving while under the influence. His daughter and wife suffers from his behaviour. I know another drunk who sterilised his wife with a broken bottle when wasted, and another friend who killed 2 in a car accident. Simply put, I don't suffer from ignorance when it comes to addictions and nor do recovered alchoholics. They realise the effect of the dissease and probably why a drunkard would not enter Heaven betten than you or I ever will.[/b]
I know a lot of people with a lot of problems. This does not make
me an expert on the curing of those problems, only with the way in
which their problems effect me.
Ofcourse no-one is claiming that alchoholism will be cured instantaneously. Christianity is a lifestyle and salvation a process.
A drunkards may pray sincerely one night and only be approached by God a week later.
You say, 'a process.' By this I take it to mean that you acknowledge
the validity of other processes? Do you think that the most effective
process is to accept Christ or the AA 12-step program? What statistics
can you cite to support what you believe?
Belief in God, is a belief that faith can overcome anything.
Anything? Faith can overcome bactierial pneumonia? With what kind of
regularity? Is faith a better cure for it than antibiotics?
This is the kind of careless statement that I find irritating, by the way,
irrespective of who makes it.
Nemesio