11 Mar 10
Indonesia's President Yudhoyono confirms security forces killed Bali bomb suspect Dulmatin in raids in Jakarta on Tuesday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/8559054.stm
Seems the lives of the police were in danger as they tried to apprehend these wanted men, so... Police - none dead, terrorists - all dead (plus another two in custody), is a good result one cannot quibble with too much.
But here's a question. How much shorter would the War On Terror last if we caught more alleged terrorists alive as opposed to killing them before they can be debriefed?
11 Mar 10
Originally posted by FMFI don't know about in Indonesia but its pretty hard to debrief someone who has been read their Miranda Rights first.
Indonesia's President Yudhoyono confirms security forces killed Bali bomb suspect Dulmatin in raids in Jakarta on Tuesday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/8559054.stm
Seems the lives of the police were in danger as they tried to apprehend these wanted men, so... Police - none dead, terrorists - all dead (plus another two in custody), is a good r ...[text shortened]... caught more alleged terrorists alive as opposed to killing them before they can be debriefed?
11 Mar 10
Originally posted by FMFOf course your point is right on... not being there though, I can't really judge the efforts of the police.
Indonesia's President Yudhoyono confirms security forces killed Bali bomb suspect Dulmatin in raids in Jakarta on Tuesday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/8559054.stm
Seems the lives of the police were in danger as they tried to apprehend these wanted men, so... Police - none dead, terrorists - all dead (plus another two in custody), is a good r ...[text shortened]... caught more alleged terrorists alive as opposed to killing them before they can be debriefed?
11 Mar 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonAh yes, a predictable answer.
I don't know about in Indonesia but its pretty hard to debrief someone who has been read their Miranda Rights first.
So nobody gets interrogated, tried or turned into a snitch in the U.S. because you've got your Miranda Rights? I find that hard to believe.
The guy with the exploding skivvies cooperated.
The other Bali bombers years spilled some beans.
The arrest and questioning of smaller fish led to the apprehension (and then unfortunate but perhaps unavoidable killing) of Dulmatin.
Don't you think increasing the ratio of arrests to killings would shorten the War On Terror?
11 Mar 10
Originally posted by Hugh GlassThey went into an internet cafe after the manager alerted them to the fact that Dulmatin had logged on. He got off one shot with his revolver as the police piled in and he was dead seconds later. The other two who were killed were making off on a motorbike which will always outrun any four wheel vehicle on the streets of Jakarta. So they were gunned down before they could get away.
Of course your point is right on... not being there though, I can't really judge the efforts of the police.
But you missed the point of the OP. I didn't ask you to judge the police.
I asked about whether capturing people would amount to bigger victories in the GWOT than taking them out does.
11 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFBlast'em on the spot.....let God debrief them...
Indonesia's President Yudhoyono confirms security forces killed Bali bomb suspect Dulmatin in raids in Jakarta on Tuesday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/8559054.stm
Seems the lives of the police were in danger as they tried to apprehend these wanted men, so... Police - none dead, terrorists - all dead (plus another two in custody), is a good r caught more alleged terrorists alive as opposed to killing them before they can be debriefed?
11 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFYes, I realize that. But if I am trying to capture someone, and a shot is fired, do I still try to take him, or them alive? It's a huge judgement call, I would error on the side where I had the most chance to live.
They went into an internet cafe after the manager alerted them to the fact that Dulmatin had logged on. He got off one shot with his revolver as the police piled in and he was dead seconds later. The other two who were killed were making off on a motorbike which will always outrun any four wheel vehicle on the streets of Jakarta. So they were gunned down before hether capturing people would amount to bigger victories in the GWOT than taking them out does.
That's a tough call, at least for me.
Should they have gunned down the guys on the motorbike? You seem to think they'd get away, so I guess killing them was better.
Do you remember Ramsi Yousef? The CIA flew into packistan and took him back to America...I wonder if he spilled any beans? His uncle was KSM, so apparently he either knew nothing, or we didn't get it.
Ok,, go ahead and fact check, and strip me down..:-)
12 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFIt's certainly better to catch them alive. That way you have at least a chance to flip them and they don't become martyrs. Plus, when these extremists terrorists go before a proper judge in a proper courtroom and start ranting and raving like lunatics, they blow whatever credibility they have with most people.
Indonesia's President Yudhoyono confirms security forces killed Bali bomb suspect Dulmatin in raids in Jakarta on Tuesday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/8559054.stm
Seems the lives of the police were in danger as they tried to apprehend these wanted men, so... Police - none dead, terrorists - all dead (plus another two in custody), is a good r caught more alleged terrorists alive as opposed to killing them before they can be debriefed?
I'm sure the Indonesian police would have preferred to apprehend this fellow alive but felt that the situation required them to open fire.
UPD: People do flip after they've been read their Miranda rights. Happens all the time. In fact, having an attorney (unless the attorney is in cahoots with their bosses) often makes them more likely to flip because attorneys may try to convince them to take a deal for lenient treatment in exchange for assistance. A defense attorney only cares about helping the client, not the cause. If the attorney can get a "win" in the form of a light sentence, in exchange for convincing his client to roll on his bosses, attorneys will often try to do that.
12 Mar 10
Originally posted by sh76"UPD: People do flip after they've been read their Miranda rights. Happens all the time. In fact, having an attorney (unless the attorney is in cahoots with their bosses) often makes them more likely to flip because attorneys may try to convince them to take a deal for lenient treatment in exchange for assistance. A defense attorney only cares about helping the client, not the cause. If the attorney can get a "win" in the form of a light sentence, in exchange for convincing his client to roll on his bosses, attorneys will often try to do that."-sh76
It's certainly better to catch them alive. That way you have at least a chance to flip them and they don't become martyrs. Plus, when these extremists terrorists go before a proper judge in a proper courtroom and start ranting and raving like lunatics, they blow whatever credibility they have with most people.
I'm sure the Indonesian police would have prefer ...[text shortened]... ange for convincing his client to roll on his bosses, attorneys will often try to do that.
I am aware of that. But as far as terrorist are concerned I prefer putting the screws to them, so to speak.
But then again I can for see in the long run those sort of tactics undermining the entire system.
Its just that crimes like true terrorism are so heinous in nature I get a sick feeling when I see them handled w/kid gloves.
I am still a little undecided on the proper way to deal w/them.
12 Mar 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonWell in terms of the question posed by the OP, you either want the GWOT shortened as much as possible or you don't. Do you think trying to arrest terrorists rather than killing them, when such a choice feasibly presents itself, is a way to shorten the "War"?
Its just that crimes like true terrorism are so heinous in nature I get a sick feeling when I see them handled w/kid gloves.
I am still a little undecided on the proper way to deal w/them.
12 Mar 10
Originally posted by FMFMay be yes maybe no... there are a few in or prisons now, but we will be the last to know what information we got out of them.
Well in terms of the question posed by the OP, you either want the GWOT shortened as much as possible or you don't. Do you think trying to arrest terrorists rather than killing them, when such a choice feasibly presents itself, is a way to shorten the "War"?
what did we get from the Christmas day bomber? It has been said a wealth of information, but how do we really know that?
Maybe in books years from now
12 Mar 10
Originally posted by FMFi thot it was the guy with the exploding skivvies that utherPD was talking about, and that he (the guy) clammed up.
Ah yes, a predictable answer.
So nobody gets interrogated, tried or turned into a snitch in the U.S. because you've got your Miranda Rights? I find that hard to believe.
The guy with the exploding skivvies cooperated.
The other Bali bombers years spilled some beans.
The arrest and questioning of smaller fish led to the apprehension (and then unfortun ...[text shortened]...
Don't you think increasing the ratio of arrests to killings would shorten the War On Terror?
14 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFHow did that turn to me having a conspiracy theroy?
You have some kind of conspiracy theory about it that you are fond of?
All I get is what the news says,,, does anyone know what information was gotten from him? Not likely.
On the other hand, it's known Ramsi Yousef had planned to blow up 6 jets simultaniously over the pacific. His test run killed a japanese man, but was not deemed to be powerful enough to bring the plane down. They were back at the drawing board increasing that amount of explosive, when a fire broke out, they ran, but forgot their laptop. So, it was just luck, plain old luck that they got that guy. He was also responsible for the first trade center blast.....
All of this is written from memory, so there is plenty of opportunity for you to discredit something today,,, go for it. I know any opening I have left out in this story, is an opportunity for you to show off your intelligence.
But in addressing the OP,, they did take him alive.... KSM was also taken alive. Now lets turn that in to a show made for TV.