1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    02 Jan '18 18:35
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Are there any non-Americans who consider Casablanca the best film ever made?
    One of the Best films ever made.
    I don't think ones nationality comes into it.
  2. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 19:00
    Originally posted by @teinosuke
    As a scholar of the arts of Japan I've had to watch a number of Japanese propaganda films from the late 1930s and early 1940s.

    Most of the films I've seen barely portray the enemy (whether Chinese or American / British) at all. In a characteristic film like Five Scouts (Gonin no sekkohei, 1938, Tomotaka Tasaka), the focus is entirely on the cohesion of ...[text shortened]... ollywood was full of Jewish emigres who could convincingly play Germans and were eager to do so.
    "By contrast, wartime Hollywood was full of Jewish emigres who could convincingly play
    Germans and were eager to do so."
    --Teinosuke

    In wartime Hollywood, the Japanese enemies were played by ethnic Chinese or Koreans
    (or white actors in 'yellowface', a practice that has continued sometimes to this day).
  3. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 19:06
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    I just want to add that when I saw Casablanca it didn’t strike me as a propaganda movie; just a just a love story.

    But, admittedly, this was many moons ago, so I’ll revist the shores of Marocco, get a bourbon and say: play it again, Sam.

    Well, sort if. Not even sure that’s the same movie. I’ll watch it again when I’m home and give it the verdict of a 40+’er instead if a 20isher.
    As I wrote earlier, 'Casablanca' wears its propaganda lightly, but a message was there.
    I never wrote that the propaganda aspects ruined the entire film for me.

    Given that Casablanca (the city) was under Vichy French colonial rule (and the Vichy French
    were keen to preserve the image of being in charge), would the Vichy French have allowed
    the Germans to do almost whatever they pleased?
  4. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 19:27
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    Isn't that a comedy?
    The Brits are all caricatures and bulge-eyed Gibson is at his over-acting worst.
    I suspect that Donald Trump and most of his supporters assume that 'The Patriot' shows real history.
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Jan '18 20:02
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    As I wrote earlier, 'Casablanca' wears its propaganda lightly, but a message was there.
    I never wrote that the propaganda aspects ruined the entire film for me.

    Given that Casablanca (the city) was under Vichy French colonial rule (and the Vichy French
    were keen to preserve the image of being in charge), would the Vichy French have allowed
    the Germans to do almost whatever they pleased?
    The Germans in the film, even though they are there to investigate the murder of their two officers who were carrying the letters of transit, are hardly allowed to "do almost whatever they pleased." Neither they or the local French authorities can detain Laszlo without legal grounds which sets up the climatic final scene at the airport.

    Vichy France was run by Fascists who's internal policies were generally designed to appease the Nazis. That it would cooperate in an investigation of German officers being murdered on its soil or in the prevention of an anti-Fascist resistance leader from escaping doesn't seem far-fetched.
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Jan '18 20:05
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I suspect that Donald Trump and most of his supporters assume that 'The Patriot' shows real history.
    Mel must not like Brits much; the King and Prince in Braveheart are pretty one dimensional, cardboard villains too (and unlike Strasser, they get a lot of air time).
  7. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 21:081 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The Germans in the film, even though they are there to investigate the murder of their two officers who were carrying the letters of transit, are hardly allowed to "do almost whatever they pleased." Neither they or the local French authorities can detain Laszlo without legal grounds which sets up the climatic final scene at the airport.

    ui were gener ...[text shortened]... r in the prevention of an anti-Fascist resistance leader from escaping doesn't seem far-fetched.
    "Vichy France was run by Fascists who's [sic] internal policies ..."
    --No1Marauder

    No1Marauder shows more of his ignorant cartoonish stereotypes of the Second World War.

    It's wrong to claim that all of Vichy France's political and military leaders were Fascists.
    Vichy French leaders collaborated with Germany for various reasons, including opportunism
    or antipathy toward the UK (which had attacked the French fleet, killing many sailors).
    Admiral Darlan, head of the Vichy French Navy, defected to the Allies when expedient.
    (No1Marauder ignorantly conflates conservative French nationalism with Fascism.)

    There were French Fascists (such as the Parti Populaire Francais) who approved of
    allying with Germany for ideological reasons, and they held much influence in Vichy France, but
    they were NOT Vichy France. Vichy France was supported by many people other than Fascists.

    Was Petain, the leader of Vichy France, himself a Fascist? Not quite, though his regime
    adopted some pro-Fascist aspects, and he tended to rule like a de facto military dictator.

    "Pétain was reactionary by temperament and education, and quickly began blaming the
    Third Republic and its endemic corruption for the French defeat. His regime soon took
    on clear authoritarian—and in some cases, fascist—characteristics. ...
    rejected much of the former Third Republic's secular and liberal traditions in favour of
    an authoritarian, paternalist, Catholic society. ... Pétain championed a rural, Catholic
    France that spurned internationalism."
    --Wikipedia

    An "authoritarian paternalist Catholic society' is NOT the same as a Fascist state.
    (How different was Petain's vision for France from Eamon de Valera's vision for Ireland?)

    Jean Bichelonne was a brilliant (he had the highest marks ever at the Ecole Polytechnique)
    minister of industry for Vichy France. As far as I know, he was much more of a relatively
    apolitical technocrat rather than a dedicated Fascist.
  8. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 21:152 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Mel must not like Brits much; the King and Prince in Braveheart are pretty one
    dimensional, cardboard villains too (and unlike Strasser, they get a lot of air time).
    No1Marauder conflates the 'Brits' with the 'English'.
    Most 'Brits' in Scotland regard William Wallace as a hero.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Jan '18 21:261 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Vichy France was run by Fascists who's [sic] internal policies ..."
    --No1Marauder

    No1Marauder shows more of his ignorant cartoonish stereotypes of the Second World War.

    It's wrong to claim that all of Vichy France's political and military leaders were Fascists.
    Vichy French leaders collaborated with Germany for various reasons, including opportu ...[text shortened]... I know, he was much more of a relatively
    apolitical technocrat rather than a dedicated Fascist.
    I guess it is impossible for you to maintain any degree of civil discourse for long.

    Grow up.

    How would you regard Pierre Laval who was executed for treason after the war? He was largely in charge of Franco-German relations during the Vichy France period:

    . To assure Germany of France’s goodwill, Laval agreed to provide French labourers for German industries. In a famous speech (June 1942) asking for volunteers, he announced that he desired a German victory.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Laval

    The description of Petain sounds very much like that of Franco. Now one can claim that Franco himself wasn't a Fascist, but it seems historical revisionism to claim the policies engaged in by Franco's Spain and Petain's Vichy France weren't Fascist. That is hardly being "ignorant".

    Further posts by you containing personal insults and attacks will be ignored; this thread had been a rather interesting and enjoyable one and I see no reason to aid you in hijacking it into yet another one filled with bile. I suggest you edit your post and remove the childish insults.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Jan '18 21:361 edit
    What part of this is inconsistent with a Fascist program:

    Fascistic-minded people within the Pétain government launched a program known as the "National Revolution" in which much of the republic's secular and liberal traditions were rejected in favor of the promotion of an authoritarian and paternalist Catholic society. Pétain, amongst others, took exception to the use of the inflammatory term "revolution" to describe an essentially conservative movement but was otherwise a willing participant in the transformation of French society. He himself described Vichy France as "a social hierarchy" and rejected "the false idea of the natural equality of men."

    Pétain proclaimed anti-Semitic laws. The imprisonment of his opponents and foreign refugees had begun. The French State had begun persecutions of Jews and Marxists, in tune with Hitler's hostility to both. Before the German occupation and collaborationist regime would come to an end, France would have camps filled with Jews and other undesirables and there would be deportations eastward to extermination camps. Leon Blum, a moderate socialist and France's premier in the mid-thirties, was among the Jews persecuted by the Pétain regime. Blum was arrested by the authorities in September 1940. He would be put on trial in 1942 and charged with treason for having "weakened France's defenses," and he would be turned over to the Germans and put in Germany's Buchenwald and Dachau concentration camps.

    Pétain championed a rural, Catholic France that spurned internationalism. As a retired Generalissimo, he ran the country on military lines.

    http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch21b5a.htm

    The Merriam-Webster definition of Fascism is:

    fascism
    1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

    Perhaps you could explain to someone as "ignorant" as I supposedly am how that definition does not apply to Vichy France.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Jan '18 21:501 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Vichy France was run by Fascists who's [sic] internal policies ..."
    --No1Marauder

    No1Marauder shows more of his ignorant cartoonish stereotypes of the Second World War.

    It's wrong to claim that all of Vichy France's political and military leaders were Fascists.
    Vichy French leaders collaborated with Germany for various reasons, including opportu ...[text shortened]... I know, he was much more of a relatively
    apolitical technocrat rather than a dedicated Fascist.
    Duchess: (How different was Petain's vision for France from Eamon de Valera's vision for Ireland?)

    Could you give me a list of the concentration camps opened for dissidents, Jews and others in Ireland during the years de Valera was the elected (not absolute dictator) Taoiseach?

    Thanks in advance.
  12. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 21:563 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I guess it is impossible for you to maintain any degree of civil discourse for long.

    Grow up.

    How would you regard Pierre Laval who was executed for treason after the war? He was largely in charge of Franco-German relations during the Vichy France period:

    . To assure Germany of France’s goodwill, Laval agreed to provide French labourers for Ger ...[text shortened]... yet another one filled with bile. I suggest you edit your post and remove the childish insults.
    As usual, No1Marauder loves to 'cherry pick' bits of evidence while completely ignoring
    or dismissing all evidence that does not suit his fanatical ideological dogmas.
    This is how a lawyer acts in an adversarial system, but it's not how a scholar acts in seeking the truth.

    I already have written that Vichy France adopted some aspects of Fascism.
    And there were French Fascists who held much influence in Vichy France.
    (No1Marauder may 'cherry pick' one Fascist and claim that he must represent all Vichy France.)
    But Vichy France was essentially a reactionary French Catholic nationalistic state, not
    a Fascist state, though reactionary nationalism and Fascism shared many enemies.
    No1Marauder fails to comprehend that one may collaborate with Fascism without necessarily being Fascist.

    No1Marauder also wrongly apparently attempts to argue that anti-Semitism in Vichy France
    was proof of its Fascism. In fact, anti-Semitism was thriving in France long before Fascism.
    Would No1Marauder claim that Dreyfus was persecuted due to a Fascist conspiracy?

    No1Marauder has a misguided extremely primitive notion of what Fascism means.
    If Petain had been really an ideological Fascist, then it's extremely odd that he never joined
    (he was born in 1856) a Fascist party in his 83 years before the Second World War.
    As far as I know, the historians' consensus is that Petain was not a Fascist.
    Petain was a reactionary nationalist like Hindenberg. Although HIndenberg foolishly
    helped HItler gain power, no historian seriously believes that HIndenberg was a Nazi.

    Contrary to No1Marauder's cocksure belief about Franco being a Fascist:
    "Stanley Payne, a scholar of fascism and Spain, notes that "scarcely any of the serious
    historians and analysts of Franco consider the generalissimo to be a core fascist."
    --Wikipedia

    And I would submit that Franco, who took power through a revolution and civil war,
    was a more likely candidate than Petain to be regarded as a Fascist.

    I have taught many students and rarely found anyone as obnoxiously unwilling to learn as No1Marauder.
    My conclusion is that the lawyer and historical layman No1Maruder is far too close-minded
    and intellectually immature to learn anything new of much significance about history.
    I suspect that, for the rest of his life, No1Marauder will keep fantasizing that his cherished
    myths about history must be true.
  13. Zugzwang
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    02 Jan '18 22:141 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Duchess: (How different was Petain's vision for France from Eamon de Valera's vision for Ireland?)

    Could you give me a list of the concentration camps opened for dissidents, Jews and others in Ireland during the years de Valera was the elected (not absolute dictator) Taoiseach?

    Thanks in advance.
    As usual, No1Marauder takes what I wrote out of context in order to attack a strawman.
    I never claimed that Petain and de Valera were exactly alike or had exactly the same historical records.
    First of all, Petain and de Valera were leaders in very different historical circumstances.
    Petain was the (coerced) leader of a client state, under implied threat of German invasion.
    In contrast, de Valera was not under pressure by the UK to persecute Ireland's tiny Jewish minority.
    It's about inconceivable that Petain and de Valera could have the same historical records.

    My point is that Petain and de Valera both seemed to embrace an overidealized image
    of France and Ireland respectively as isolationist rural conservative Catholic societies.
    And I know some modern Irish writers who have criticized de Valera for looking backward
    rather than forward into Irish history.
  14. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    02 Jan '18 23:353 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Mel must not like Brits much; the King and Prince in Braveheart are pretty one dimensional, cardboard villains too (and unlike Strasser, they get a lot of air time).
    Braveheart has a similar theme.

    YouTube : History Buffs Patriot

    YouTube : History Buffs Braveheart

    The fighting wasn’t bad though.

    YouTube : Scholagladiatoria Patriot
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    03 Jan '18 17:37
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "By contrast, wartime Hollywood was full of Jewish emigres who could convincingly play
    Germans and were eager to do so."
    --Teinosuke

    In wartime Hollywood, the Japanese enemies were played by ethnic Chinese or Koreans
    (or white actors in 'yellowface', a practice that has continued sometimes to this day).
    Of course, Western audiences were likely not to have a very detailed sense of the differences between East Asian cultures, so it was easy for Hollywood to get away with casting actors from other Asian backgrounds in Japanese roles. Even in the 21st century, the film of Memoirs of a Geisha felt able to cast Chinese actress as Japanese geisha - a decision which was only mildly controversial in the West, though it caused upset in both China and Japan.

    I did once see a 1941 Japanese film (set in the nineteenth century) in which a minor English character was played by a German actor. He spoke faltering and heavily accented English, but of course, the film was aimed at a mostly monolingual Japanese audience which would not have been disturbed by this.
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