Debates
22 Dec 07
22 Dec 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI don't know if I'm still Catholic or not, but even at my most fervent I was a very firm believer in the separation of church and state. I don't believe the church should be involved in politics. It always made me furious to hear that someone voted for or against a candidate solely on the basis of his or her stand on abortion. OK, so he's against killing people before they're born but otherwise once they come out they're fair game? I'll stop here ...
If you're Catholic, how much do you feel the Church should be involved in politics?
How much temporal influence does the Church hold these days? Do they have an intelligence agency? Are there still officially Catholic countries? Does the Pope have any voice in them?
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22 Dec 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI'm not Catholic, but it strikes me that if one truly believes that the Pope is God's second on earth, and thus the Church is directly accountable to God, then surely it should be listened to.
If you're Catholic, how much do you feel the Church should be involved in politics?
How much temporal influence does the Church hold these days? Do they have an intelligence agency? Are there still officially Catholic countries? Does the Pope have any voice in them?
Surely if you don't adhere to the Pope's wishes, and recognise that they are right and good, then you are admitting that the Church of which you are part of is untrue.
For instance, the Pope on condoms and AIDS: we all know that his stance is wrong, but for a Catholic to say that, would surely be to deny the Catholic Church as a credible religion.
In short, I cannot see how a person would be able to claim belief in the Catholic Church, without following its doctrine on the non-spiritual (as well as spiritual, of course).
22 Dec 07
Originally posted by HumeAThe fallacy of the logic here is the automatic stance that the pope is *God's second on earth.* When I was a *practicing Catholic* I viewed the pope as the elected (by the College of Cardinals) leader of the church. That did not make him God's second. A quick review of papal history shows that this has been quite a political position and often not elected with a view to bringing the Gospel message to the world. Elected leaders are fallible no matter who elects them. Even the doctrine of papal infallibility is very limited in scope.
I'm not Catholic, but it strikes me that if one truly believes that the Pope is God's second on earth, and thus the Church is directly accountable to God, then surely it should be listened to.
Surely if you don't adhere to the Pope's wishes, and recognise that they are right and good, then you are admitting that the Church of which you are part of is untru ...[text shortened]... urch, without following its doctrine on the non-spiritual (as well as spiritual, of course).
All religions have pieces of credibility and pieces of nonsense, just as those lacking religion or allergic to it do. But if I believe in God, then I believe that I have my own brain and am expected to use it. I'm expected to take the information available to me and process it, weigh all the factors, and come to a conclusion. On the other hand, most of the *faithful Catholics* I know voted for Bush because of his pre-birth stands and ignoring his death penalty and war and environmental stands.
22 Dec 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungAre there still officially Catholic countries?
If you're Catholic, how much do you feel the Church should be involved in politics?
How much temporal influence does the Church hold these days? Do they have an intelligence agency? Are there still officially Catholic countries? Does the Pope have any voice in them?
Yes, Argentina is an example
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWhen I was a member of the SWP (Socialist Worker's Party) in Britain, in 1997, 70% of their members were either Catholics or ex-Catholics.
If you're Catholic, how much do you feel the Church should be involved in politics?
How much temporal influence does the Church hold these days? Do they have an intelligence agency? Are there still officially Catholic countries? Does the Pope have any voice in them?
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23 Dec 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerIn that case, apologies for my ignorance.
The fallacy of the logic here is the automatic stance that the pope is *God's second on earth.* When I was a *practicing Catholic* I viewed the pope as the elected (by the College of Cardinals) leader of the church. That did not make him God's second. A quick review of papal history shows that this has been quite a political position and often not ele ...[text shortened]... ause of his pre-birth stands and ignoring his death penalty and war and environmental stands.
But what makes a person a Catholic? Simply the Church that they choose to go to? Transubstantiation?
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by HumeAThere is a process by which one officially becomes Catholic, but (unless you are excommunicated) there is no process I know of by which someone ceases to officially be Catholic. So I think that part is a matter of personal discretion. Similarly, one can choose to consider oneself Catholic and refer to oneself as Catholic, but there are things they can't do or participate in without the official stamp of approval, such as being married in a Catholic church (i.e. you can claim to be Catholic but if you want to be married in a Catholic church and claim to be Catholic you have to prove it).
In that case, apologies for my ignorance.
But what makes a person a Catholic? Simply the Church that they choose to go to? Transubstantiation?