1. Standard memberno1marauder
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    31 Oct '14 22:25
    Originally posted by whodey
    Name any example of a government that has not devolved into the elite leading the rest.
    I can't. That's why I consider myself a philosophical anarchist. But given the way the world is presently organized, anarchism is not a viable alternative. So that leaves the only solution to the problem is to have the People assert control over their government and compel it to do what is in the public's best interest (of course protecting all Natural Rights and being consistent with the Natural Law).
  2. Standard memberno1marauder
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    31 Oct '14 22:42
    Here is a good summary of how capitalism and "liberty" are basically incompatible for the vast majority:

    Private property is in many ways like a private form of state. The owner determines what goes on within the area he or she "owns," and therefore exercises a monopoly of power over it. When power is exercised over one's self, it is a source of freedom, but under capitalism it is a source of coercive authority. As Bob Black points out in The Abolition of Work:

    "The liberals and conservatives and Libertarians who lament totalitarianism are phoneys and hypocrites. . . You find the same sort of hierarchy and discipline in an office or factory as you do in a prison or a monastery. . . A worker is a part-time slave. The boss says when to show up, when to leave, and what to do in the meantime. He tells you how much work to do and how fast. He is free to carry his control to humiliating extremes, regulating, if he feels like it, the clothes you wear or how often you go to the bathroom. With a few exceptions he can fire you for any reason, or no reason. He has you spied on by snitches and supervisors, he amasses a dossier on every employee. Talking back is called 'insubordination,' just as if a worker is a naughty child, and it not only gets you fired, it disqualifies you for unemployment compensation. . .The demeaning system of domination I've described rules over half the waking hours of a majority of women and the vast majority of men for decades, for most of their lifespans. For certain purposes it's not too misleading to call our system democracy or capitalism or -- better still -- industrialism, but its real names are factory fascism and office oligarchy. Anybody who says these people are 'free' is lying or stupid."
    Unlike a company, the democratic state can be influenced by its citizens, who are able to act in ways that limit (to some extent) the power of the ruling elite to be "left alone" to enjoy their power. As a result, the wealthy hate the democratic aspects of the state, and its ordinary citizens, as potential threats to their power. This "problem" was noted by Alexis de Tocqueville in early 19th-century America:

    "It is easy to perceive that the wealthy members of the community entertain a hearty distaste to the democratic institutions of their country. The populace is at once the object of their scorn and their fears."
    These fears have not changed, nor has the contempt for democratic ideas. To quote one US Corporate Executive, "one man, one vote will result in the eventual failure of democracy as we know it." [L. Silk and D. Vogel, Ethics and Profits: The Crisis of Confidence in American Business, pp. 189f]

    This contempt for democracy does not mean that capitalists are anti-state. Far from it. As previously noted, capitalists depend on the state. This is because "[classical] Liberalism, is in theory a kind of anarchy without socialism, and therefore is simply a lie, for freedom is not possible without equality. . .The criticism liberals direct at government consists only of wanting to deprive it some of its functions and to call upon the capitalists to fight it out amongst themselves, but it cannot attack the repressive functions which are of its essence: for without the gendarme the property owner could not exist." [Errico Malatesta, Anarchy, p. 46].

    Capitalists call upon and support the state when it acts in their interests and when it supports their authority and power. The "conflict" between state and capital is like two gangsters fighting over the proceeds of a robbery: they will squabble over the loot and who has more power in the gang, but they need each other to defend their "property" against those from whom they stole it.

    The statist nature of private property can be seen in "Libertarian" (i.e. minarchist, or "classical" liberal) works representing the extremes of laissez-faire capitalism:

    "[I]f one starts a private town, on land whose acquisition did not and does not violate the Lockean proviso [of non-aggression], persons who chose to move there or later remain there would have no right to a say in how the town was run, unless it was granted to them by the decision procedures for the town which the owner had established" [Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State and Utopia, p. 270]
    This is voluntary feudalism, nothing more. Of course, it can be claimed that "market forces" will result in the most liberal owners being the most successful, but a nice master is still a master. To paraphrase Tolstoy, "the liberal capitalist is like a kind donkey owner. He will do everything for the donkey -- care for it, feed it, wash it. Everything except get off its back!" And as Bob Black notes, "Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of servitude. . . . [F]reedom means more than the right to change masters." [The Libertarian as Conservative]. That supporters of capitalism often claim that this "right" to change masters is the essence of "freedom" is a telling indictment of the capitalist notion of "liberty."

    http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secB4.html
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    31 Oct '14 22:482 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I can't. That's why I consider myself a philosophical anarchist. But given the way the world is presently organized, anarchism is not a viable alternative. So that leaves the only solution to the problem is to have the People assert control over their government and compel it to do what is in the public's best interest (of course protecting all Natural Rights and being consistent with the Natural Law).
    Essentially we have the age old problem of trying to make people behave morally. Do we try to force them to act morally, coerce them to act morally, or just let them have their freedom to be amoral?
  4. Standard memberno1marauder
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    01 Nov '14 00:01
    Originally posted by sh76
    How do you protect and encourage the incentive to innovate, invent and grow businesses at personal financial risk without protecting intellectual property and the ability to run a business and make large profits?
    Under the current system, does such protection of artificial property rights enhance incentive when held in a relative few hands or stifle it? Would totally free competition really mean less incentive and innovation?

    I'm not sure; perhaps the issue deserves a separate thread.
  5. Standard memberno1marauder
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    01 Nov '14 01:42
    Another good point:

    In reality, what capitalists object to about "big government" is its spending on social programs designed to benefit the poor and working class, an "illegitimate" function which "wastes" part of the surplus that might go to capital (and also makes people less desperate and so less willing to work cheaply). Hence the constant push to reduce the state to its "classical" role as protector of private property and the system, and little else.

    http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secB2.html#secb25

    One can obviously substitute "right wingers" for "capitalists" in the above quotation.
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    01 Nov '14 02:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Another good point:

    In reality, what capitalists object to about "big government" is its spending on social programs designed to benefit the poor and working class, an "illegitimate" function which "wastes" part of the surplus that might go to capital (and also makes people less desperate and so less willing to work cheaply). Hence the constant push t ...[text shortened]... secb25

    One can obviously substitute "right wingers" for "capitalists" in the above quotation.
    I've read that the Boston Tea Party was not about higher taxes. Instead, the cost of tea was actually reduced. The main rub was that England had monopolized tea, thus they revolted.
  7. SubscriberWajoma
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    01 Nov '14 05:17
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Another good point:

    In reality, what capitalists object to about "big government" is its spending on social programs designed to benefit the poor and working class, an "illegitimate" function which "wastes" part of the surplus that might go to capital (and also makes people less desperate and so less willing to work cheaply). Hence the constant push t ...[text shortened]... secb25

    One can obviously substitute "right wingers" for "capitalists" in the above quotation.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/right-wing

    Nope, don't see how that definition has anything to do with capitalism.
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    01 Nov '14 13:341 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I can't. That's why I consider myself a philosophical anarchist. But given the way the world is presently organized, anarchism is not a viable alternative. So that leaves the only solution to the problem is to have the People assert control over their government and compel it to do what is in the public's best interest (of course protecting all Natural Rights and being consistent with the Natural Law).
    The fact that you cannot provide examples of a government that you propose should bring us pause. In fact, every communist, Marxist, Nazi will tell you, it could work if only.....

    History shows that the beginning of the US government brought the most freedom. Unfortunately, over the years this freedom has been usurped by collectivism. The current government is but a shell of what it used to be.

    In fact, every form of government seems to devolve into a p0ower hungry collectivist utopia devoid of personal freedoms. It seems to be a disease in human nature.
  9. Germany
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    01 Nov '14 20:121 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    The fact that you cannot provide examples of a government that you propose should bring us pause. In fact, every communist, Marxist, Nazi will tell you, it could work if only.....

    History shows that the beginning of the US government brought the most freedom. Unfortunately, over the years this freedom has been usurped by collectivism. The current govern ...[text shortened]... ngry collectivist utopia devoid of personal freedoms. It seems to be a disease in human nature.
    How many Nazis have told you that?

    By the way, I like how you equate slavery, a lack of universal suffrage and a host of other reprehensible practices with "freedom."
  10. Standard memberno1marauder
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    01 Nov '14 20:26
    Originally posted by whodey
    The fact that you cannot provide examples of a government that you propose should bring us pause. In fact, every communist, Marxist, Nazi will tell you, it could work if only.....

    History shows that the beginning of the US government brought the most freedom. Unfortunately, over the years this freedom has been usurped by collectivism. The current govern ...[text shortened]... ngry collectivist utopia devoid of personal freedoms. It seems to be a disease in human nature.
    Nazis quite obviously didn't believe in democracy of any kind, so your comment is absurd.

    The rest is your usual ranting. It's hard to see how there is less freedom in the United States now then there was in 1789. Millions of human beings aren't enslaved (REAL SLAVES not the rhetorical ones you spout about), the franchise has been expanded exponentially and human rights are far more protected.
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    02 Nov '14 03:593 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Nazis quite obviously didn't believe in democracy of any kind, so your comment is absurd.

    The rest is your usual ranting. It's hard to see how there is less freedom in the United States now then there was in 1789. Millions of human beings aren't enslaved (REAL SLAVES not the rhetorical ones you spout about), the franchise has been expanded exponentially and human rights are far more protected.
    How is the US any less free?

    How about the freedom of the press as an example? The US dropped 13 points to 46th in the world under Obama. Now the US is right above Haiti. LOL.

    http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/the-u-s-ranks-46th-in-freedom-of-the-press/

    Want another example? Sure you do. How about freedom of privacy? How much privacy do we have now with the NSA up our arse every minute of every day. I know, I know, what do we have to hide, right?

    As far as democracy goes, Congress has only a 10% approval rating, yet they keep getting elected anyway. Some democracy we have there, eh?

    So all I hear from people like you is how the government needs more power by owning all the land, taking away a free market and the like. But its all somehow OK since we have the power to vote for tweedle dee or tweedle dum from the two statist wealthy parties. Sickening. People like you are the cancer that we have in Washington.
  12. Standard memberno1marauder
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    02 Nov '14 04:03
    Originally posted by whodey
    How is the US any less free?

    How about the freedom of the press as an example? The US dropped 13 points to 46th in the world under Obama. Now the US is right above Haiti. LOL.

    http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/the-u-s-ranks-46th-in-freedom-of-the-press/

    Want another example? Sure you do. How about freedom of privacy? How much priva ...[text shortened]... statist wealthy parties. Sickening. People like you are the cancer that we have in Washington.
    Since you know I don't vote for either of those parties, your last sentence is just more nonsensical ranting. Nor have you made any coherent argument that the US is less free now then it was in 1789. That is because you can't.
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    02 Nov '14 04:061 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Since you know I don't vote for either of those parties, your last sentence is just more nonsensical ranting. Nor have you made any coherent argument that the US is less free now then it was in 1789. That is because you can't.
    The US government passes about 40,000 new laws and regulations every year, and you say we are not any less free?

    I started another thread about how the IRS is just taking money away from people, even though they can prove it was not obtained illegally.

    Of course, why would you care since conservatives are also targeted by the IRS and you didn't seem to care about that either.
  14. Germany
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    02 Nov '14 07:20
    Originally posted by whodey
    The US government passes about 40,000 new laws and regulations every year, and you say we are not any less free?

    I started another thread about how the IRS is just taking money away from people, even though they can prove it was not obtained illegally.

    Of course, why would you care since conservatives are also targeted by the IRS and you didn't seem to care about that either.
    I thought you already retracted the claim that "more laws = less freedom"?
  15. Standard memberno1marauder
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    02 Nov '14 14:13
    Originally posted by whodey
    The US government passes about 40,000 new laws and regulations every year, and you say we are not any less free?

    I started another thread about how the IRS is just taking money away from people, even though they can prove it was not obtained illegally.

    Of course, why would you care since conservatives are also targeted by the IRS and you didn't seem to care about that either.
    The laws allowing asset forfeiture and seizure by the Feds without conviction of a crime (first enacted in 1982) should be repealed. Unfortunately laws of this type are and have been common in the States since the beginning of the Republic. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/516/442/case.html

    You have misstated what the law does (if people can prove the money was not obtained illegally they will prevail though it should not be their burden to do so) but laws of this type remain noxious.

    Your "throw some crap on the wall and hope some of it sticks" strategy is a bit tiresome.
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