What is a person's frame of mind while they are in a depressive state? Are they aware of their depression and are either willing or unwilling to do anything about it, are they unaware of the reason they are feeling as they do and acting as they are and only become aware that they were in a depressive state after it is over, or are they aware of the depression but repress the knowledge while they are in that state? Or is it different with every experience of a depressive state?
Are you of the opinion that depression is a disease and a person has no control over it until they get help or are they weak willed, lazy people who look for an excuse to feel sorry for themselves and try to make others feel sorry for them?
How plausible is it to overcome depression without the aid of drugs/psychiatrists and the like?
ncrosby🙂
having been a victim of this i can only state my experiances. So to explain in easy terms, when you are having a good time you laugh, you know your laughing, and you do not want to stop. well when in deprestion you know you are depressed, but canot see a way out due to everything looking bad, Drugs are only a tempary cure as they do not solve the problem. Its up to the indervidual to face the demons (just a term not actual) which are causing the depression.
Originally posted by ncrosbyIt really depends what sort of depression you are talking about.
What is a person's frame of mind while they are in a depressive state? Are they aware of their depression and are either willing or unwilling to do anything about it, are they unaware of the reason they are feeling as they do and acting as they are and only become aware that they were in a depressive state after it is over, or are they aware of the depress ...[text shortened]... e is it to overcome depression without the aid of drugs/psychiatrists and the like?
ncrosby🙂
Are you talking about people who are down?
Or are you talking about clinical depression?
The first one is the catagory: Say your partner has just died. You are down. Maybe even depressed. It's a way of coping.
Sure you can force someone to go to the circus and watch a clown, I don't think it's gonna work though.
Generally people who are depressed in this way need time. Yes they are aware they are depressed and most (but this is of course very individual) would do anything to get out of being depressed. Generally it's out of their control though and they will need time to absorb matters and put them into place.
Clinical depression is something else altogether. This is the body lacking a certain substance (or perhaps too much of another). Obviously this biological malfunction will be influenced by situations (psycho-somatic influences).
These people also can't influence their situation, but other than the first group of people, time generally WON'T help sort matters out. In fact there is various research which indicates that if no treatment is forthcoming, the depression will get worse as time progresses.
It's a common idea that people suffering a clinic depression just need a jolt in the right direction, a bit of motivation or some good luck. It's a load of rubbish.
Basically there are various medicines which can have effect on a depression, but this depends on the individual and it really is a matter of experimentation to see if the doctors can get the right combo to work on a person. Sometimes, after everything is tried, they fail.
This is usually the point when the depressed person does get a jolt. An electric jolt. EST (electro-shock therapy) is noted to work in some cases, but it is on record as not solving the problem and mostly as only having a short-term effect. Seemingly even a short term effect is preferable to these people than the constant drone of depression.
Imagine choosing electric shocks over every day living! Depression is really not a case of laziness or feeling sorry for one's self.
Originally posted by ncrosbynot everyone knows that they are depressed when they are, many people put it down to lacking energy and motivation or blame it on other worries in their lives. Depression only becomes clearly noticable when there is no logical reason why someone should be as 'down' as they are given their circumstances.
What is a person's frame of mind while they are in a depressive state? Are they aware of their depression and are either willing or unwilling to do anything about it, are they unaware of the reason they are feeling as they do and acting a ...[text shortened]... without the aid of drugs/psychiatrists and the like?
ncrosby🙂
Knowing you're clinically depressed can help as it gives you something to fight against whereas before you had no idea why you were depressed so didn't knwo what to do about it. I do worry that 'knowing' (or thinking) that you are depressed can make things worse by govong people an excuse to stop trying (eg. "I'm not going to try any more but it's not my fault because I'm depressed" ) but I don't think that this is usually the case.
I've tried to describe the mental state of depression before like this, although it's much easier to do if I draw the diagrams:
Take a blank piece of paper witha line drawn horisontally accross the middle. This is a graph of whether you are happy or unhappy; above the line you are happy, below the you are sad. Now draw a random wavy line across that central line from right to left. This is how your mood line, showing how your mood changes over time; when something good happens your wave goes above the line and you are happy. When something bad happens you are sad and your mood line goes below the happy line. When you are dead on the happy line you have no input to make you happy or sad, you just are.
This probably all sounds pretty basic & silly - bear with me. So far we have assumed that everyone starts on the 'happy line' and it takes input good or bad to move them off it. This isn't true. Draw another horisontal line in the bottom half of the paper - this is where a depressed person starts from. When they they have no input they are unhappy. Draw the same wavy line as before but this center it on the lower line. You'll see that despite good things happening the mood line doesn't get above the origional 'happy line' very often, and when it does it doesn't last very long. This is depression simplified. You start off at a low point. Doing things that others enjoy and that you used to enjoy don't bring any pleasure because they fail to ge you above the happy line. If these things stop being unenjoyable then you will stop doing them - this is why depressed people can get labelled as lazy or unwilling to help themselves because others can see that they won't do things that they think would be fun and would cheer the depressed person up. Even if they do 'come out to play' the depressed person won't enjoy themselves, will get even more upset because they can see others enjoying themselves and can't understand why they can't. At the same time their friends will get fed up with them (I've done it myself) because the depressed person appears to refuse to have a good time and spoil the fun for everyone else.
There many sides to depression that make it very easy for it to get worse. Like I have already said, because things stop being fun you stop doing them, and you become reclusive and withdrawn. Once you stop doing things that have the potential to make you feel even a little less sad it feeds your depression because you lose friends, hobbies, interests.
Also, if you think about the kind of events that will be big enough to lift your mood above the 'happy line' then they are intense, such as drink, drugs, sex, gambling. All these things can be fine, but when they become the only way a person can feel happy then that person is draw to do them more & more often and addictions are formed. At the same time doing these things compulsively and in excess is bad for the rest of your life again making you withdraw from 'normal' society. To make things worse, these activities lose their intensity so that they no longer make you happy unless you do them more & more. A vicious circle is formed.
hmmm. I'll stop there. That's quite a lot of reading & I don't know that it'll make any sense.
Originally posted by shavixmirWell spoken.
It really depends what sort of depression you are talking about.
Are you talking about people who are down?
Or are you talking about clinical depression?
The first one is the catagory: Say your partner has just died. You are down. Maybe even depressed. It's a way of coping.
Sure you can force someone to go to the circus and watch a clown, I don ...[text shortened]... every day living! Depression is really not a case of laziness or feeling sorry for one's self.
With regards to ECT or EST(electro convulsive or electro shock therapy), it is as you say, mainly a temporary solution and is no longer regarded as a treatment of choice. I don't know if you've ever given(since I don't know if you're a doctor/nurse) ECT to anybody or been witness to such, but typically it's not a pleasant sight. People who undgo it suffer from temporay amnesia and frequently have to be led back to their rooms because they don't have a clue where they're supposed to go. They pretty much stay in a fog for a day or so. I never have liked the idea of treating someone with convulsive therapies. Another technique which was, and probably still is used, is insulin shock therapy. Same principle, different method.
This is a very important thread. Thanks for posting it. Depression is not laziness. It is a totally life altering condition. It is like dying soooo slowly. You have no idea how deep into it you are, though you are aware you are not yourself. My brother killed himself with alcohol in a period of three months because of depression. I suffer from depression, though I am active and I try to be happy, it is a daily struggle.
I am a sucker for the where-are-they-now genre of articles, so I bought a Sports Illustrated off the shelf a few weeks back, to see what became of Joe Namath. I am just old enough to have seen some of his NFL games, before he retired from chronic knee problems.
Anyway, the article says he had to take medication for depression. Also, he has been through rehab for alcoholism.
Originally posted by Paul DiracThere are some really amazing people who have struggled with depression and or alcoholism. Just to name a few: Rachmaninov, Mike Wallace, Bonnie Raitt, Eric Clapton as well as a host of others.
I am a sucker for the where-are-they-now genre of articles, so I bought a Sports Illustrated off the shelf a few weeks back, to see what became of Joe Namath. I am just old enough to have seen some of his NFL games, before he retired from chronic knee problems.
Anyway, the article says he had to take medication for depression. Also, he has been through rehab for alcoholism.
Originally posted by shavixmirI guess I am talking about clinical depression.
It really depends what sort of depression you are talking about.
Are you talking about people who are down?
Or are you talking about clinical depression?
The first one is the catagory: Say your partner has just died. You are down. Maybe even depressed. It's a way of coping.
Sure you can force someone to go to the circus and watch a clown, I don ...[text shortened]... every day living! Depression is really not a case of laziness or feeling sorry for one's self.
I hate the idea that things such as this and addictions, etc. are medical problems that need to be dealt with with drugs and treatment. These are things that SHOULD be able to be dealt with with your own willpower and work. I don't like the thought of not having control over something like emotions. I'm not saying that this is true, just the way it SHOULD be.
So are we just weak-willed human beings or is it hopeless without some form of medical treatment?
ncrosby🙂
This is a very important thread. Assume that when I am referring to depression below, I mean clinical depression, not one caused by a specific occasion (see Shav's post above).
The issue of depression is exceedingly complicated because there are a lot of psychological and physiological conditions that cause it (and usually it is a combination of both). Since the symptoms are very much similar (tired all the time, sad, not motivated, things that used to interest you seem boring, etc.), it is very difficult to tell what kind of treatment will work best.
Depression is most often caused by a history of behavioral patterns along with the chemical reactions which encourage those behavior patterns--a spiral of sorts. So, as result, while chemical treatments (medications) can help, cognitative and behavioral therapy is very, very helpful.
Some psycological patterns that those with depression fall into include: seeing the negative side of situations, but never the positive side; attributing success on luck or fooling people (also called an external locus of control); catastrophizing relatively minor events; assuming that people are just being polite, but really think you're incompetant/stupid/ugly/fat &c; reviewing past negative events and reliving them over and over (obsessing), and so on.
Medications can make it easier to deal with these and other behavioral patterns, but they don't treat them, generally. Usually, psychotherapy is required. Unfortunately, especially in America, this treatment takes the form of past analysis, your relationship with your parents, friends, lovers, &c. However, often, these are the very things that the person is doing already (obsessing about the past), and causes more harm than good. More modern treatments which appear to be more successful focus on behavioral, cognitive, and interpersonal therapy which deals with, respectively, how you deal with things, how you think about things, and how you relate with others.
Please consider the following website, which I think is an excellent summary of what depression is, how medications do and do not work, what treatments tend to be successful, and lots of other things.
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/
And, if you think that you might be depressed, please consider going to see someone who specializes in it. There is a lot of shame unfairly associated with depression, along with other mental illnesses. If you had an arm you thought was broken, or really bad cut, no one would fault you for seeing a doctor, even if it might not be necessary. Let that doctor decide and, if you don't like his/her judgment, get a second opinion. But don't wait until things get so, so bad before doing it (and I hope that they aren't now).
If you have any other questions but don't want to talk about it in the forum, please feel free to PM me.
Nemesio
Originally posted by belgianfreakWhat an awesome post belgianfreak, thank you! I've never thought about depression in this way and it explains a lot of actions that people in that state take. I think maybe a lot of people who are depressed don't understand why they lose interest in things they used to enjoy and this is a great explanation of that.
not everyone knows that they are depressed when they are, many people put it down to lacking energy and motivation or blame it on other worries in their lives. Depression only becomes clearly noticable when there is no logical reason why someone should be as 'down' as they are given their circumstances.
Knowing you're clinically depressed can help ...[text shortened]... mm. I'll stop there. That's quite a lot of reading & I don't know that it'll make any sense.
I've talked to people who have taken prescribed drugs for depression and what I always get out of it is that they feel like they are on a straight line, never happy and never sad, just there. So do you think that maybe one of the things the drug is supposed to do is put you more on that middle line where it is easier to reach the happy state rather than starting out in the sad state making the happy state harder to obtain? Or do you think I am reading more into it than I should?
ncrosby🙂
Originally posted by nemesioAnother great post, thank you Nemesio.
This is a very important thread. Assume that when I am referring to depression below, I mean clinical depression, not one caused by a specific occasion (see Shav's post above).
The issue of depression is exceedingly complicated because there are a lot of psychological and physiological conditions that cause it (and usually it is a combination of both). ...[text shortened]... r questions but don't want to talk about it in the forum, please feel free to PM me.
Nemesio
So what you are saying about prescribed drugs is that they control the behavioral patterns by kind of hiding the problems so to speak, but the problem is still there under the surface?
Let me also ask this question, though I am not exactly sure how to phrase it. Let's see...Nowhere here am I saying that I MYSELF am depressed, but I will use myself as an example:
Let's say I am depressed. But I can't make myself believe that it is a medical condition to be treated. I am of the belief that there are too many drugs out there for this or that that has weakened humanity into thinking they can't do things for themselves. I also have no faith in therapists and the like. For 2 reasons- 1) from two specific incidents in the past where I have been used to create guilt for someone else who needed help, and where I have been told matter of factly that my life will lead in a specific direction because of the actions/"diseases" of people related to me. 2) I can't understand how a person who has no knowledge of me and my life except for what I choose to tell that person can correctly make a judgement of how I live my life. I understand that they have knowledge beyond my own of behavior and such, but I see them as generalities that you can't use to make judgements of me.
So. If I were really depressed, it is clear that I have no faith in medical drug treatments, and I have no faith in therapy and such, so where would that leave a person with my beliefs? Would that person be just stubborn and lazy and not really WANT to get help? Is that the way that person would be seen by others?
ncrosby🙂
Originally posted by ncrosbyTry to look at it like this:
Another great post, thank you Nemesio.
So what you are saying about prescribed drugs is that they control the behavioral patterns by kind of hiding the problems so to speak, but the problem is still there under the surface?
Let me als ...[text shortened]... Is that the way that person would be seen by others?
ncrosby🙂
If you are diabetic, your body isn't producing enough insuline (as an example). No matter how strong minded you are, how good you are at meditating, if the little gland that turns sugars(?) into insuline is broken, you are going to need insuline injections to treat the diabetes.
(I've just come back from a three day concert in Lowlands and my mind is a little numb...so the example might not be as medically sound as it should be, but you'll get the jist).
It is the same with clinical depression. Something in your body is malfunctioning and one or other hormone or chemical just isn't there (or it is there in decreased amounts, or there is too much of another chemical...all up for debate, the mind is a very complicated matter).
So, just like diabetes, you can't beat depression by willpower alone.
EDIT:
And just like you don't say to someone with diabetes: "HEY, pull yourself together man, think positive and I'm sure the trembling will stop." You don't say to a clinical depressed person: "Cheer up mate, you're bumming everyone out."
I know several people close to me with clinical depression.
Each of them has sought treatment from psychologists for therapy and most were leter referred to psychiatrists for medications. Each of them has had different treatments, both in therapy and with medications. Their treatments have allowed each of them to lead much better lives than they led before treatment. The determination of a proper drug therapy is very difficult. On average, it took about three years to find a drug therapy that gave good balanced results.
I think that depression is very much misunderstood, and I believe shavixmir's and nemesio's assessments are correct for many cases. If any of you are depressed or know someone who is depressed, I urge you to try to educate yourself about it. (I have seen estimates that one out of four people suffer from depression regularly.) Although it can be difficult, our depressed friends and family often need us to help them do what they cannot do alone.
One common cause of depression is a (possibly permanent) physiological problem in the brain. Examples being over- or under- production of neurotransmitters, too many or too few receptors, etc. Such cases cannot be treated by therapy alone (yet?), and are clearly medical problems.
There is also evidence that drug abuse can cause some such problems, as well as emotional abuse when one is a child.