Originally posted by pcaspianWhy would humanity need redemption ?
Because people have psychological propensities to act in a manner incompatible with salvation. They make idols of their own idiosyncratic desires, and proceed to worship these idols rather than God. Their own egos determine their course through life, and they are often greedy, wrathful, lazy, deceptive, etc. The example of Christ shows the importance of being "poor in spirit".
Curious, do these Christians also ignore the book of Revelation or believe Jesus did not use a whip to drive out the innocent merchants dealing in the church ?
Let's hope the ignore the book of Revelation. I'm sure many doubt that Christ actually whipped anybody. Hardly seems plausible to me, either. But why is that important? What is the point of the story of Christ and the merchants; what spiritual truths does the story exemplify? The Bible isn't just a history book, after all. There's a point to it, right? So, is there a deeper meaning to the story of Christ and the merchants? Do you know what it is?
1. Is this the same God that would not have destroyed Sodom had there existed just 5 righteous people in the entire city ? Jesus certainly never seemed to question God's beliefs not the 'myths' in the OT, yet we should ?
Do you think God actually rained fire upon a city of people? Isn't it more plausible that that story is a parable with a message concerning proper behavior? Of course the accounts we have, putatively from his disciples (though research suggests that is not the case for the Gospel of John), would not question the literality of the OT, his audience consisted of those who believed in the literality of the OT. What would have happened to Jesus if he had said "God would never actually kill firstborn children, but the story has a message nonetheless..."? What would have happened to his message? Wouldn't it have been lost in the resulting uproar?
How do these Christians distinguish myth from fact ?
Do you think there has to be an algorithm? If so, why? How do you distinguish myth from fact? Do you really think there was a talking snake? Do you really think that God formed Eve from a real-life, flesh and bone rib of Adam's? Come on!
Seems instead of judging mankind and accepting their sinfull nature, these smart Christians judge the biblical God, then create a God they like and then procees to worship that one. Alas sadly you are describing shortcomings of many real-life Christians, but 'smart' is not an adjective I would use to describe them.
These Christians would respond that God gave us minds so that we could use them, and that literalist Christians are guilty of worshipping an idol (your "Biblical God" ) created from thoughtlessly plastering together the stories of the Bible. Of course, they would not describe the slavish devotion to text as particularly smart either.
Originally posted by bbarr
Their own egos determine their course through life, and they are often greedy, wrathful, lazy, deceptive, etc. The example of Christ shows the importance of being "poor in spirit".
Your assumption is still substantial. That God would then sacrifise his only Son to save man. Ok, so Jesus was crucified on the cross 2 000 years ago. We believe this historically because there is evidence to suggest it actually happened. Can the ressurection of Lasarus be classified also as myth ? Jesus's own resurrection ? Jesus turning water into wine, or can we even assume Jesus performed any miracles and was not just a really wise man ? Now take the story of Jesus back 6000 years, before advent of historical scripts. Can we assume Jesus to still be historical, or do we place him alongside the myth of Hercules, son of Zeus ? Is time the descider ?
Let's hope the ignore the book of Revelation.
Precisely why ? This Christian God sure seems mild. Is there a heaven ? Do we all go to Heaven ? No Hell ?
I'm sure many doubt that Christ actually whipped anybody. Hardly seems plausible to me, either. But why is that important? What is the point of the story of Christ and the merchants; what spiritual truths does the story exemplify? The Bible isn't just a history book, after all. There's a point to it, right? So, is there a deeper meaning to the story of Christ and the merchants? Do you know what it is?
Jesus driving out merchants in the church is an example that even Jesus (as we know him in the OT) puts God first. Refer to Jesus's answer when people asked him which commandments were the most important, what was his response ? Jesus puts God first, then man. Your argument that the children were innocent in Egypt is futile. I can argue that the mercants were equally innocent, after all, for all we know they saw nothing wrong with trading in the church.
Do you think God actually rained fire upon a city of people? Isn't it more plausible that that story is a parable with a message concerning proper behavior?
Plausibility and the Bible are not at compatible. Unless ofcourse you assume every superhuman act to be a metaphor, whilst other acts are merely everyday life. No wine at a wedding and Jesus turns water to wine ?
What would have happened to Jesus if he had said "God would never actually kill firstborn children, but the story has a message nonetheless..."? What would have happened to his message? Wouldn't it have been lost in the resulting uproar?
Can't agree. Jesus was a believer as the rest of the Jews in the OT.
Luke 16 vs 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
You think Isaiah's prophecies would also be myth ?
Do you think there has to be an algorithm? If so, why? How do you distinguish myth from fact? Do you really think there was a talking snake? Do you really think that God formed Eve from a real-life, flesh and bone rib of Adam's? Come on!
3/4 years ago I didn't believe Adams and Eve's sins were eating from the forbidden fruit. Making an assumption that something is a myth simply due to lack of plausibility is taking an unneccesary risk in reading the Bible. My only criticism of C.S.Lewis was a similar belief in mythology in certain parts of the Bible. Whilst this can be a justified belief, you'ver already answered your question. When you make assumptions that something is mythical in nature, you will run the risk of assuming many other parts of the Bible are mythical, when they are not. As such, assuming that Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, Daniel in the Lion pit or the story of David and Goliath are mythical, runs a significant danger of losing touch of God. Would I prefer to be called sophisticated, smart yet not preach the Bible as written, no.
These Christians would respond that God gave us minds so that we could use them, and that literalist Christians are guilty of worshipping an idol (your "Biblical God" ) created from thoughtlessly plastering together the stories of the Bible. Of course, they would not describe the slavish devotion to text as particularly smart either.
A good friend of mine's father committed suicide on Monday. I've spent the last few days contemplating his descisions and prayed that God would find mercy on his soul. He was ill at the time and I want to believe his motives were pure done to protect his family. My dilemma is that the Bible is opposes suicide. Do I preach from my biblical point of view to others that may consider suicide in future, or do I preach from what I want to believe ? Do I put other people at risk through erroneous advice of my own or stick to what my belief is based on ?
Could you deal with the knowledge that your actions and words removed someone from God for eternity ? My friend no doudbt loves his father greatly, however he will likely never be able to become a Christian, as becoming a Christian and accepting the Biblical texts would mean he would have to assume that his father did not go to heaven. For him most likely, the only form of Christianity is a mellow version, where only the very evil do not share the Kingdom. Most likely he will know the biblical belief regarding suicide, that will prevent him from coming close to Christianity. Do you think it would be ok for me to tell him otherwise in the notion that he might become a Christian, even if I believe otherwise ?
It is entirely possible to understand God better by following the examples in the Bible and not discarding them merely as myth. Was it a co-incidence that Moses was placed in that basket as a baby ? No. Was it a co-incidence that the basket did not sink in the river ? No.
There is alot to learn from even the simplest tales, classifying them as myth merely on principles of plausibility or that you don't like the God's laws is not following the faith.
cheers.
Originally posted by pcaspianI'll try my best to respond to these points, but I also want to take a moment to invite other Christians to respond to the issues raised in this thread. Some of the more interesting questions, in my opinion, are these: 1) To what extent does the Christian faith rely upon the literality of the Bible? 2) Is there any way to determine whether, for any given Biblical narrative, whether that narrative is intended as accurate history, or metaphor, or both? 3) Are there spiritual risks involved in treating the Bible as as accurate history? 4) Are there spiritual risks involved in treating the Bible as metaphor?
Originally posted by bbarr
[b]
Their own egos determine their course through life, and they are often greedy, wrathful, lazy, deceptive, etc. The example of Christ shows the importance of being "poor in spirit".
Your assumption is still substantial. That God would then sacrifise his only Son to save man. Ok, so Jesus was crucified on the ...[text shortened]... s of plausibility or that you don't like the God's laws is not following the faith.
cheers.[/b]
So, this is an open invitation for the non-literalist Christian lurkers here at RHP to provide their insight (and I know you're out there, don't make me call on you by name...).