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Debates Forum

  1. 18 Jul '13 01:08
    The usual suspects are whining again, this time that Muirfield Golf Links, site of the 142nd Open Championship, is an all male club. Last summer Augusta National admitted Condolezza Rice and Darla Moore as its first female members.

    I can only find one confirmed round of golf by Condi Rice April 2013 at Augusta, which she played with Phil Michelson and another member. She is seen in her green jacket looking good.

    The question is, what harm does an all male club do? And how much difference to average female Americans does Condi's membership at Augusta National mean, if any?
  2. 18 Jul '13 01:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The usual suspects are whining again, this time that Muirfield Golf Links, site of the 142nd Open Championship, is an all male club. Last summer Augusta National admitted Condolezza Rice and Darla Moore as its first female members.

    I can only find one confirmed round of golf by Condi Rice April 2013 at Augusta, which she played with Phil Michelson and ...[text shortened]... ifference to average female Americans does Condi's membership at Augusta National mean, if any?
    'Feminism rears its ugly head...'
    --Normbenign

    Notice any sexist insinuations in this thread's title?

    "The question is, what harm does an all male club do?"
    --Normbenign

    It depends. If there's a private club wherein businessmen often engage
    (informally) in business (making contacts, sounding out deals, etc.), then
    a businesswoman would be placed at a disadvantage in being excluded.
    On the other hand, a male friend of mine was deeply involved in martial arts
    and competed in tournaments. He liked to train in an all-male club (though
    I don't know if it had a policy of excluding women). He used to encourage
    me to go watch him work out, yet I was glad to leave him alone in his club.

    NASA's Ames Research Center did a study of how effectively teams of
    men and women would work, separately or together, on NASA missions.
    In terms of their performance, they were ranked as follows:
    1) team of both men and women
    2) team of only men
    3) team of only women

    I suspect that having a team of both men and women tended to bring
    complementary strengths together. There's been some speculation that
    a team of only women performed worst because the women seemed too
    concerned with maintaining harmonious relations ('women are too socially
    minded' within the group and not enough with completing assigned tasks.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    18 Jul '13 02:06 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The usual suspects are whining again, this time that Muirfield Golf Links, site of the 142nd Open Championship, is an all male club. Last summer Augusta National admitted Condolezza Rice and Darla Moore as its first female members.

    I can only find one confirmed round of golf by Condi Rice April 2013 at Augusta, which she played with Phil Michelson and ...[text shortened]... ifference to average female Americans does Condi's membership at Augusta National mean, if any?
    I heard that you had a female daughter. Is that true?


    Sorry, man. I couldn't resist.
  4. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    18 Jul '13 02:21
    Originally posted by normbenign

    The question is, what harm does an all male club do?
    Ask any male member the downside of being declined membership.
  5. 18 Jul '13 02:45
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    'Feminism rears its ugly head...'
    --Normbenign

    Notice any sexist insinuations in this thread's title?

    "The question is, what harm does an all male club do?"
    --Normbenign

    It depends. If there's a private club wherein businessmen often engage
    (informally) in business (making contacts, sounding out deals, etc.), then
    a businesswoman would be p ...[text shortened]... oo socially
    minded' within the group and not enough with completing assigned tasks.
    Sorry about any insinuation in the thread title. Perhaps it ought to have been worded differently. IMHO, some of the gains by feminists are not beneficial to average women, and there is little reason to support such moves like the current harassment of the R&A over some all male clubs being in the Open Championship rotation.

    The argument that business is often done at such social places, is only a little persuasive. As the tendency for more post graduate degrees being earned by women continues, men may be begging to join bridge clubs, and other female venues where the big deals will be taking place. Not too many women are wanting membership in cigar bars or brew pubs with memberships.

    As pointed out, members like Condi are symbolic.

    Male/female teams mixed vs. separate gender seem to have advantages and disadvantages. The task at hand seems to be the main factor. When an all female team is focused and agreeable they can move heaven and earth, but the smallest things can turn them against each other, and little things become big and last forever. Few men are capable of managing a female team.

    Mixed gender teams I've seen don't work out well, usually because of the men being distracted by the women, and jealousies arising between the men. Managing such an environment is like herding cats in a thunderstorm.
  6. 18 Jul '13 15:41
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Sorry about any insinuation in the thread title. Perhaps it ought to have been worded differently. IMHO, some of the gains by feminists are not beneficial to average women, and there is little reason to support such moves like the current harassment of the R&A over some all male clubs being in the Open Championship rotation.

    The argument that busine ...[text shortened]... arising between the men. Managing such an environment is like herding cats in a thunderstorm.
    Aren't most modern workplaces "mixed gender teams"? I work in a "mixed gender team" and I don't observe any "distraction by women" or "jealousy arising between the men".
  7. 18 Jul '13 16:57
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Aren't most modern workplaces "mixed gender teams"? I work in a "mixed gender team" and I don't observe any "distraction by women" or "jealousy arising between the men".
    I saw an interesting television program about the difficulties of a mission to mars (narrated by Shatner!). One of the topics was the inclusion of women on such a mission.
  8. 18 Jul '13 18:28
    Originally posted by dryhump
    I saw an interesting television program about the difficulties of a mission to mars (narrated by Shatner!). One of the topics was the inclusion of women on such a mission.
    So they had that as a topic in a TV program. So what?

    Do you have any information such as what some of these supposed difficulties would be?
  9. 18 Jul '13 18:41
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Ask any male member the downside of being declined membership.
    You mean like I would be declined? Lol people are actually discussing which elitists are allowed in which elitist clubs?

    Why should anyone care? Perhaps some of us have enough money to get in, but for the rest of us why does it matter?
  10. 18 Jul '13 19:47
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    So they had that as a topic in a TV program. So what?

    Do you have any information such as what some of these supposed difficulties would be?
    I'm sorry, that post was worded poorly. The show I watched was actually about the psychological difficulties the astronauts would face. One of the aspects was the makeup of the team. They discussed different personalities and gender differences in dealing with stress and sleep deprivation. It was pretty good, it's a program called Mars Rising on the science channel. They did discuss the sexual tension angle some. Apparently Russia has decided not to include women (as astronauts) in their Mars program. What they said about sexual tension was that it could prove a distraction in an environment where the stress level would already be off the charts.
  11. 18 Jul '13 19:59
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Sorry about any insinuation in the thread title. Perhaps it ought to have been worded differently. IMHO, some of the gains by feminists are not beneficial to average women, and there is little reason to support such moves like the current harassment of the R&A over some all male clubs being in the Open Championship rotation.

    The argument that busine ...[text shortened]... arising between the men. Managing such an environment is like herding cats in a thunderstorm.
    I don't object to having all-male groups in some contexts, such
    as support groups for erectile dysfunction or prostrate cancer.
    But I don't see any compelling reason to exclude businesswomen from
    a businessmen's club. The motivation seems to be something like:
    "We are men and we have power, so we can do whatever we wish.
    In our private club, we would like to enjoy making sexist comments
    without feeling embarrassed by having any women around us."

    As I recall, there was a college fraternity whose men kept a list with
    numerical ratings of women students and teachers with regard to how
    attractive they were and supposedly how enjoyable they would be in bed.
    Many women were offended by this list's existence; some women might
    have been disappointed that they did not have higher ratings.
  12. 18 Jul '13 20:02
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The usual suspects are whining again, this time that Muirfield Golf Links, site of the 142nd Open Championship, is an all male club. Last summer Augusta National admitted Condolezza Rice and Darla Moore as its first female members.

    I can only find one confirmed round of golf by Condi Rice April 2013 at Augusta, which she played with Phil Michelson and ...[text shortened]... ifference to average female Americans does Condi's membership at Augusta National mean, if any?
    Not so much in major tournaments, but in everyday life, golf is enjoyed by middle/upper class people, a lot of whom are business people. I know 2 women in upper management positions typically headed by men (one of them in charge of a 200-employee chemical manufacturing plant) who learned how to play golf to be able to engage in the bonding and business discussions that occur on the course. I don't know what barriers they faced at various courses.

    If there is no government involvement in the situation I don't think the club should be forced to include women. But I don't think there is anything wrong with Rory McIlroy stating his opposition to the club excluding women, or with legally permissible pressure (public relations campaigns, calls for boycotts of sponsors etc.) being applied on the British Open committee not to use country clubs that exclude them.

    I don;t see McIlroy as feminist whiner.
    http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2013/7/17/4532054/british-open-2013-muirfield-male-only-rory-mcilroy-tiger-woods
  13. 18 Jul '13 20:14
    Originally posted by JS357
    Not so much in major tournaments, but in everyday life, golf is enjoyed by middle/upper class people, a lot of whom are business people. I know 2 women in upper management positions typically headed by men (one of them in charge of a 200-employee chemical manufacturing plant) who learned how to play golf to be able to engage in the bonding and business discuss ...[text shortened]... ion.com/golf/2013/7/17/4532054/british-open-2013-muirfield-male-only-rory-mcilroy-tiger-woods
    Golf is still very much a game played by the elite of society.
    Portmarnock Golf club is an exclusive elitist golf club in Dublin Ireland.
    The President of Ireland is automatically considered as a member as
    soon as the President is elected.

    Yet they do not admit women.

    Ireland has had two women Presidents who did not enjoy this privilege.
  14. 18 Jul '13 20:16
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    Golf is still very much a game played by the elite of society.
    Portmarnock Golf club is an exclusive elitist golf club in Dublin Ireland.
    The President of Ireland is automatically considered as a member as
    soon as the President is elected.

    Yet they do not admit women.

    Ireland has had two women Presidents who did not enjoy this privilege.
    So perhaps you could explain to me why we should feel sorry for elitist women? Why we should feel for sorry for any of the elites?
  15. 18 Jul '13 20:23
    Originally posted by dryhump
    I'm sorry, that post was worded poorly. The show I watched was actually about the psychological difficulties the astronauts would face. One of the aspects was the makeup of the team. They discussed different personalities and gender differences in dealing with stress and sleep deprivation. It was pretty good, it's a program called Mars Rising on the scie ...[text shortened]... prove a distraction in an environment where the stress level would already be off the charts.
    I think sexual tension is something that is a relatively minor issue when it comes down to it. If a man/woman is sufficiently professional and mature then they can get their work done with anyone.

    If you at least have a modicum of control over yourself then you should be able to behave appropriately in front of an attractive member of the opposite sex.