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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 17 Mar '10 07:46
    Isn't it obvious to any political neophyte and everyone else that the focus of every politician should be on jobs?

    What idiot advisers are letting Obama open himself up to the charge of being out of touch with an America in crisis?
  2. 17 Mar '10 07:51
    Also, let's hear what everyone thinks on if Obama is makin a mistake (off his rocker) or if this is smart politics.

    I think its a dumb risk and he should be focussing on jobs, credit markets, real estate, and the economy in general. No room to put so much emphasis on health right now. It's just a dumb-dumb political move. The Democrats will deserve to lose about 30 seats in the house just for the cost of being dumb... if the Republicans can prove themselves smart enough to capitalize on this out-of-touch, non-economic, non-jobs-related, healthcare detour.
  3. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    17 Mar '10 09:16 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Also, let's hear what everyone thinks on if Obama is makin a mistake (off his rocker) or if this is smart politics.

    I think its a dumb risk and he should be focussing on jobs, credit markets, real estate, and the economy in general. No room to put so much emphasis on health right now. It's just a dumb-dumb political move. The Democrats will deserve ...[text shortened]... enough to capitalize on this out-of-touch, non-economic, non-jobs-related, healthcare detour.
    Access to health and good levels of health are keystones of prosperity and are very much related to employment and productivity. I'm surprised that you, as a conservative, are overlooking this - and even going so far as to suggest that the issues of access to health and the structure of the health industry are "non-economic".

    Health costs (and the prospect of serious costs in the event of a health problem) are one of the biggest most pressing items in the household economy of just about every single family in the U.S. and a potential looming financial disaster for the economy/real world budgeting of tens of millions of families.

    It's interesting, as an observer from overseas, to see a politician with the intestinal fortitude to address this thorny and politically treacherous issue - one that has been on or near the top of ordinary people's list of concerns for several decades.
  4. 17 Mar '10 10:06 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Isn't it obvious to any political neophyte and everyone else that the focus of every politician should be on jobs?
    If the Republicans hadn't decided to pursue a policy of wilful obstructionism in the face of the will of the American people as expressed in the congressional and Presidential elections of 2008, the health care bill would have been signed into law months ago and Obama would by now be concentrating on righting the economy.
  5. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    17 Mar '10 10:41
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Isn't it obvious to any political neophyte and everyone else that the focus of every politician should be on jobs?

    What idiot advisers are letting Obama open himself up to the charge of being out of touch with an America in crisis?
    False dichotomy. Republicans would have us believe that health care reform will cost jobs. Saving the environment will cost jobs. Every progressive initiative will cost jobs. We must surrender to our baser instincts at every point in the name of protecting jobs. Jobs which the Republicans will ship overseas anyway regardless of how many concessions are made in their behalf. It never ceases to amaze me how so many poor and middle class Americans will consistently vote against their own best interests by voting for the party of the rich.
  6. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    17 Mar '10 10:50
    Originally posted by rwingett
    False dichotomy. Republicans would have us believe that health care reform will cost jobs. Saving the environment will cost jobs. Every progressive initiative will cost jobs. We must surrender to our baser instincts at every point in the name of protecting jobs. Jobs which the Republicans will ship overseas anyway regardless of how many concessions are made ...[text shortened]... ans will consistently vote against their own best interests by voting for the party of the rich.
    I'm no republican but they're right here, all those great things you fantasize about ride in on the back of prosperity, yep, prosperity created by more jobs.
  7. 17 Mar '10 11:39
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I'm no republican but they're right here, all those great things you fantasize about ride in on the back of prosperity, yep, prosperity created by more jobs.
    If you create value, you create value.
  8. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    17 Mar '10 12:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I'm no republican but they're right here, all those great things you fantasize about ride in on the back of prosperity, yep, prosperity created by more jobs.
    The rich don't create jobs. They eliminate them. A functioning society naturally creates jobs on its own, they aren't gifts from on high. When we quit prostrating ourselves before the rich in abject servitude and realize that instead of being the source of greater wealth the rich are actually an impediment toward it, then there will be jobs aplenty.
  9. 17 Mar '10 13:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Isn't it obvious to any political neophyte and everyone else that the focus of every politician should be on jobs?

    What idiot advisers are letting Obama open himself up to the charge of being out of touch with an America in crisis?
    Be careful what you wish for. Do you really want the politicians to start focusing on jobs? You know that any effort to "deal with jobs" will mean passing another big stimulus and-or public works bill that will make the current deficit even larger.

    I doubt that you would support any of that.

    Do you have a specific "jobs plan" in mind that you would want Congress to consider?
  10. 17 Mar '10 13:17 / 8 edits
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Isn't it obvious to any political neophyte and everyone else that the focus of every politician should be on jobs?

    What idiot advisers are letting Obama open himself up to the charge of being out of touch with an America in crisis?
    The entire Democrat party is driven towards nationalizing health care. Obamacare is but one more step. This drive has been in place since FDR layed out their plan with the second bill of rights (google it) which gave birth to the entitlement culture. Of course, it is not so much the right to have and pursue things in the second bill of rights like a right to health care, a home, retirement etc, as it is the obligation of government to provide these things for you. These lofty goals, however, cannot be achieved without moving towards socialism. In this respect, Obama is just an emply suit holding to a vision created in the 1930's.

    Having said that, the time to strike is now for the Democrats because they have control of both branches of government. Therefore, everything else must take a back seat so that this health care bill can get passed. They often talk of "courage" in passing this legislation. Translated, this means taking a bullet, if necessary, and sacrifice their careers to pass this if that what it takes. You might say that the Dems have already taken a bullet in MA as Coakley lost to Brown. The bottom lline is that people see that the Dems have more interest in their own agendas than they do the whims of thos they represent. In short, people would rather have a job tha would provide them health coverage more than government hand outs. You then add to the corruption in the bill for Obamacare with the Corn Husker Kickback etc, and the mounting debt this bill will not doubt add to and what you wind up with is a lot of angry voters. Then again, i suppose you can believe that the government can add another 30 million people to Medicare without decreasing the quality or raising the debt, however, if you do I have a bridge I would like to sell ya!!

    Of course, if they are successful with Obamacare, the Dems will be on to cap and trade. They will then be asked to have "more courage" to pass the largest regressive tax in US history costing the US even more jobs. Crazy, huh? Really they don't care if they lose control of both branches of geovernment because they know all they have to do is pass these things and they become cast in stone. Then they can come back later and mount another assault to regain control of both branches.
  11. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    17 Mar '10 13:32
    Originally posted by whodey
    In short, people would rather have a job tha would provide them health coverage more than government hand outs.
    Do the hard working poor in the U.S., the kind that have two or three jobs - do these jobs provide them with health plans and decent coverage?
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    17 Mar '10 13:33
    Originally posted by whodey
    Then again, i suppose you can believe that the government can add another 30 million people to Medicare without decreasing the quality or raising the debt...
    So you're saying there are 30,000,000 Americans who don't even get Medicare? Isn't that, by your own admission, an urgent problem?
  13. 17 Mar '10 13:59
    Originally posted by FMF
    So you're saying there are 30,000,000 Americans who don't even get Medicare? Isn't that, by your own admission, an urgent problem?
    I agree. What is the non-statist plan for covering these 30mill people?
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    17 Mar '10 14:08
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    Be careful what you wish for. Do you really want the politicians to start focusing on jobs? You know that any effort to "deal with jobs" will mean passing another big stimulus and-or public works bill that will make the current deficit even larger.

    I doubt that you would support any of that.

    Do you have a specific "jobs plan" in mind that you would want Congress to consider?
    Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
  15. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    17 Mar '10 14:28
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The rich don't create jobs. They eliminate them. A functioning society naturally creates jobs on its own, they aren't gifts from on high. When we quit prostrating ourselves before the rich in abject servitude and realize that instead of being the source of greater wealth the rich are actually an impediment toward it, then there will be jobs aplenty.
    Depends what rich. An entrepreneur with a vision can be productive; the original hedge fund crowd and their apes produce nothing whatsoever. Because nowadays you don't have to produce anything except transactions to make money. With black-box trading, you don't even need to be human.