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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    07 Jun '13 15:53
    Glenn Greenwald is the American reporter who broke the story about the NSA spying on Verizon and the PRISM program. At least one member of the Fourth Estate is doing their job. In a time of sycophants drunk on proximity to power ceding their responsibility to the citizens of this country in exchange for a ticket to the White House Press Dinner, Glenn Greenwald is showing the value of a free press.

    Thank you, Mr. Greenwald.
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    07 Jun '13 18:24
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Glenn Greenwald is the American reporter who broke the story about the NSA spying on Verizon and the PRISM program. At least one member of the Fourth Estate is doing their job. In a time of sycophants drunk on proximity to power ceding their responsibility to the citizens of this country in exchange for a ticket to the White House Press Dinner, Glenn Greenwald is showing the value of a free press.

    Thank you, Mr. Greenwald.
    Hero, indeed.

    Now, if he'd only stop being a fearmongering reactionary, he'd be perfect.
  3. 07 Jun '13 20:42 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Glenn Greenwald is the American reporter who broke the story about the NSA spying on Verizon and the PRISM program. At least one member of the Fourth Estate is doing their job. In a time of sycophants drunk on proximity to power ceding their responsibility to the citizens of this country in exchange for a ticket to the White House Press Dinner, Glenn Greenwald is showing the value of a free press.

    Thank you, Mr. Greenwald.
    Welcome to the Glenn Greenwald appreciation society!

    I have cited many articles by Glenn Greenwald before you (Sasquatch) did.
    As far as I can infer, most of Glenn Greenwald's strong criticisms of the
    US government, military, and media are rejected by American 'conservatives'
    as well as by most of the American 'liberals' in this forum. (As I recall,
    Normbenign has attacked Glenn Greenwald for allegedly being a 'Brit' who
    could understand nothing about the United States.)

    While Glenn Greenwald's a US citizen who's based in the United States,
    he works for a leftist British newspaper, 'The Guardian'. If he worked for
    a major American newspaper, I doubt that he would be allowed nearly
    as much freedom to write his strong criticisms of the United States.
    So I would submit that Glenn Greenwald's work may 'show the value of
    a free press' (to quote Sasquatch672) in the UK, but not much to the
    credit of the usually too sycophantic mainsteam US media.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    07 Jun '13 21:54
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While Glenn Greenwald's a US citizen who's based in the United States,
    he works for a leftist British newspaper, 'The Guardian'. If he worked for
    a major American newspaper, I doubt that he would be allowed nearly
    as much freedom to write his strong criticisms of the United States.
    So I would submit that Glenn Greenwald's work may 'show the value of
    ...[text shortened]... in the UK, but not much to the
    credit of the usually too sycophantic mainsteam US media.
    Complete speculation, probably unfounded. There are plenty of leftist (and rightist) media outlets in the US and Greenwald himself has written for the NY Times, LA Times and American Conservative. He's also been invited to speak at many prominent American universities (including Harvard and Yale). He worked for salon.com until less than a year ago when he left voluntarily.
  5. 07 Jun '13 22:35
    Originally posted by sh76
    Complete speculation, probably unfounded. There are plenty of leftist (and rightist) media outlets in the US and Greenwald himself has written for the NY Times, LA Times and American Conservative. He's also been invited to speak at many prominent American universities (including Harvard and Yale). He worked for salon.com until less than a year ago when he left voluntarily.
    "There are plenty of leftist (and rightist) media outlets in the US..."
    --Sh76

    'Apples and oranges'. I referred to Glenn Greenwald being fully free to
    write for a 'major American newspaper', *not* just any 'media outlet'.
    (I don't put a leftist website on the same level as a 'major newspaper'.)
    And I was *not* claiming that Glenn Greenwald was *completely banned*
    from writing for all 'major American newspapers'. I suspect that *some*
    of Glenn Greenwald's articles--with enough editorial revisions--could be
    accepted at some 'major American newspapers'.

    If Sh76, a right-wing American who's a zealous supporter of Israel, would
    like to believe that the *mainstream US media*, including 'major American
    newspapers', is very politically diverse and 'balanced' between leftist and
    rightist voices, then he believes in a world of fantasy. As I recall, some
    academic studies have found that the mainstream US media has a distinct
    right-wing bias when compared to the media in many European societies.
    Also, the US media has quite a reputation (even among Israeli academics)
    of being extremely biased and factually disingenuous in favour of Israel and
    Zionism, even more so than the Israeli media itself. But most Americans,
    who don't read enough from non-US media sources, seem ignorant enough
    to accept it without asking enough critical questions.

    As some other writers beside me have noted, Noam Chomsky is accepted
    by European newspapers as a major intellectual critic of the United States.
    In his home country, the USA, Noam Chomsky seems treated almost like an
    'un-person' as far as the mainstream US media is concerned; someone like
    Ann Coulter seems to enjoy much more visibility in the popular US media.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    08 Jun '13 00:27
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "There are plenty of leftist (and rightist) media outlets in the US..."
    --Sh76

    'Apples and oranges'. I referred to Glenn Greenwald being fully free to
    write for a 'major American newspaper', *not* just any 'media outlet'.
    (I don't put a leftist website on the same level as a 'major newspaper'.)
    And I was *not* claiming that Glenn Greenwald was *co ...[text shortened]... Ann Coulter seems to enjoy much more visibility in the popular US media.
    Let's be serious; Ann Coulter's visibility in the popular US media is not based on her exposition of standard right wing crazy talk being treated as more intellectually valid than Noam Chomsky's ideas.
  7. 08 Jun '13 21:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Let's be serious; Ann Coulter's visibility in the popular US media is not based on her exposition of standard right wing crazy talk being treated as more intellectually valid than Noam Chomsky's ideas.
    I did *not* write that thoughtful people take Ann Coulter more seriously
    than they take Noam Chomsky. I wrote that Ann Coulter is more visible
    than Noam Chomsky in popular US media. And if there's a Republican
    US President, I suspect that Ann Coulter would be much more likely than
    Noam Chomsky to be invited to a White House dinner for the press.
  8. 08 Jun '13 21:19
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I did *not* write that thoughtful people take Ann Coulter more seriously
    than they take Noam Chomsky. I wrote that Ann Coulter is more visible
    than Noam Chomsky in popular US media. And if there's a Republican
    US President, I suspect that Ann Coulter would be much more likely than
    Noam Chomsky to be invited to a White House dinner for the press.
    Whatever about that, unlikely.
    You are correct and I will applaud you.


    You were indeed one of the first to sing the praises of Glenn Greenwald.

    I am not as backward as you seem to think I am.



    Bear in mind that I am praising you in this post.


    ( Unusual I know but credit where it is due )
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    08 Jun '13 21:24
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I did *not* write that thoughtful people take Ann Coulter more seriously
    than they take Noam Chomsky. I wrote that Ann Coulter is more visible
    than Noam Chomsky in popular US media. And if there's a Republican
    US President, I suspect that Ann Coulter would be much more likely than
    Noam Chomsky to be invited to a White House dinner for the press.
    Ann Coulter is far more physically attractive than Noam Chomsky. At any rate, her media visibility is largely on FoxNews. Noam would probably be taken more seriously if he hadn't been a Cambodian Holocaust denier and if he wasn't so prone to conspiracy talk.
  10. 08 Jun '13 22:25 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Ann Coulter is far more physically attractive than Noam Chomsky. At any rate, her media visibility is largely on FoxNews. Noam would probably be taken more seriously if he hadn't been a Cambodian Holocaust denier and if he wasn't so prone to conspiracy talk.
    I note that most American 'liberals' who aim for 'respectability' in US political
    culture tend to put much distance between themselves and Noam Chomsky.

    'Ann Coulter is far more physically attractive than Noam Chomsky.'
    --No1Marauder

    In a youth-oriented US media culture, Ann Coulter is 33 years younger than
    Noam Chomsky. De gustibus non est disputandum, yet I don't perceive
    Ann Coulter as attractive in any way, including her physical appearance.

    'her (Ann Coulter's) media visibility is largely on Fox News.'
    --No1Marauder

    Like it or not, FoxNews is a major player in the US media marketplace.

    Noam Chomsky has been marginalized in the mainstream US media for
    several reasons. I would submit that Chomsky's views on Cambodia under
    the Khmer Rouge would *not* be a prominent reason. Chomsky has written
    nothing about Cambodia, as far as I know, for many years, and not many
    Americans today would recall what he wrote about it. As Noam Chomsky
    himself has explained, US television news and commentary programs tend
    to insist upon concision and "the beauty of (concision) is that you can
    only repeat conventional thoughts." When one 'repeats conventional
    thoughts' (e.g. the USA is morally superior and its perceived enemies are
    morally bad), one does not to spend any time providing any evidence or
    explanation. When one expresses an unconventional thought, however,
    one needs to spend time providing evidence and explanation as well as
    often overcoming emotive opposition, which television's time constraints
    don't allow. Another reason for Noam Chomsky's marginalization in the
    mainstream US media is his continuing criticism of Israel and the almost
    unconditional US support for Israel. When former US President Jimmy Carter
    wrote a book criticizing Israel's oppression of the Palestinians, even he and
    his book were marginalized in the mainstream US media.

    By the way, I disagree with Noam Chomsky on some issues. For instance,
    I am not convinced by his apparent position that Israel acts only as a proxy
    of US imperialism. Still, Noam Chomsky's views tend to be an interesting
    alternative to those of the usual American liberal and conservative pundits.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    11 Jun '13 20:21
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I note that most American 'liberals' who aim for 'respectability' in US political
    culture tend to put much distance between themselves and Noam Chomsky.

    'Ann Coulter is far more physically attractive than Noam Chomsky.'
    --No1Marauder

    In a youth-oriented US media culture, Ann Coulter is 33 years younger than
    Noam Chomsky. De gustibus non est disp ...[text shortened]... alternative to those of the usual American liberal and conservative pundits.
    You answered your own question. Chomsky is not that popular in the US media because his views are so far outside the mainstream. Your response to the OP was about "the value of a free press... in the UK" which you specifically contrasted with the US.

    Neither Chomsky nor Greenwald have been victims of anything that would constitute a limitation on their freedoms. Chomsky's views are outside the mainstream and Greenwald has had plenty of play.

    As for Ann Coulter, she is an attractive woman whether you perceive it or not. Of course it is subjective and any one person could fail to see it that way, but most American men would find her attractive. In addition, she's a talented public speaker and her aggressive speaking style is tailor made for cable news. Sure, the content of what she says is usually far right nonsense, but comparing her to Noam Chomsky misses the point.
  12. 12 Jun '13 02:48
    Originally posted by sh76
    You answered your own question. Chomsky is not that popular in the US media because his views are so far outside the mainstream. Your response to the OP was about "the value of a free press... in the UK" which you specifically contrasted with the US.

    Neither Chomsky nor Greenwald have been victims of anything that would constitute a limitation on their freed ...[text shortened]... she says is usually far right nonsense, but comparing her to Noam Chomsky misses the point.
    My general point is that mainstream US media (not every possible 'media
    outlet' such as a website or blog) allows a narrower range of views to be
    regularly expressed than the media in some European societies.

    Given that it's a patriotic American cliche to say 'the United States has
    the most free and diverse media in the world', I suspect that you (Sh76),
    who seem satisfied with the mainstream US media as it is, will not believe
    my statement (above). I know some American expats, however, who
    would regard my statement as an evident fact in their experiences.

    By the way, I could not care less about whether or not 'most American
    men would find (Ann Coulter) attractive'. I don't expect that other
    people must share my subjective perceptions of physical attractiveness.
  13. 12 Jun '13 14:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I did *not* write that thoughtful people take Ann Coulter more seriously
    than they take Noam Chomsky. I wrote that Ann Coulter is more visible
    than Noam Chomsky in popular US media. And if there's a Republican
    US President, I suspect that Ann Coulter would be much more likely than
    Noam Chomsky to be invited to a White House dinner for the press.
    Popular US media is concerned with selling advertising. How much advertising do you think Chomsky would bring in? You're right that Ann Coulter would be more likely to be invited to the white house. Politicians want big name donors for their political campaigns. How many big name donors do you think are interested in what Noam Chomsky has to say?
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    12 Jun '13 17:15 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    My general point is that mainstream US media (not every possible 'media
    outlet' such as a website or blog) allows a narrower range of views to be
    regularly expressed than the media in some European societies.

    Given that it's a patriotic American cliche to say 'the United States has
    the most free and diverse media in the world', I suspect that you (Sh pect that other
    people must share my subjective perceptions of physical attractiveness.
    Given that it's a patriotic American cliche to say 'the United States has the most free and diverse media in the world', I suspect that you (Sh76), who seem satisfied with the mainstream US media as it is, will not believe my statement (above).


    For future reference, I do love the United States but I certainly don't buy into any of this "we're #1" nonsense; it's sheer bunkum for the masses and anyone with half a brain realizes that. I have no illusions that the US is the best at everything and nor do I see any profit in repeating that nonsense. That politicians sometimes do it is merely a sign of their contempt for the average voter; it's kissing babies, not serious dialogue.

    Whether "mainstream US media allows a narrower range of views to be regularly expressed than the media in some European societies" is true I have no idea, though your use of the word "some" as a qualification certainly makes it objectively likely (and also takes any real meaning out of the assertion). What I did object to is your pointing at the case of Glenn Greenwald as evidence that the UK media is any freer than the US media (which was clearly within the scope of your implication, IMO).

    By the way, I could not care less about whether or not 'most American men would find (Ann Coulter) attractive'.


    Nor should you, but it is a very real factor in why she is popular, decreasing the validity of her comparison to Noam Chomsky.
  15. 13 Jun '13 00:39 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Ann Coulter is far more physically attractive than Noam Chomsky. At any rate, her media visibility is largely on FoxNews. Noam would probably be taken more seriously if he hadn't been a Cambodian Holocaust denier and if he wasn't so prone to conspiracy talk.
    Seems like you would have to tape Ann's mouth (so she can't speak) to be able to do her.