Hmm, I'm feeling in need of moral guidance. Tomorrow I cast my vote in Britain's general election, in one of the most marginal seats in the country, and I still haven't worked out who to vote for.
Two options.
Option one. Vote Lib Dem. This is what I want to do. I'm a member of the party for God's sake. Unfortunately, where I live, the Lib Dems haven't got a hope in hell. The battle here (in Thatcher's old seat incidentally, Finchley and Golders Green) is between Labour and the Conservatives. And if too many people like me vote Lib Dem rather than Labour, in the Tories get.
Yes, I know that's what Blair says, but it doesn't automatically preclude from it being true. It just feels like that sometimes...
Now there can be no doubt. The Tories are evil. They must lose.
Which brings me to...
Option two. Vote Labour. This has the advantage of saving my conscience from being forever pricked by the knowledge I helped reward Michael Howard's deeply despicable anti-immigration campaign. My MP even voted against the war and university tuition fees, so he's probably more Lib Dem than most Lib Dems.
Sounds easy. But the drawback? It would mean voting (not directly, but near enough) for that man Blair. And he wouldn't know that I was thinking of stamping on his head while doing so. Drawback two, it would be a kind of endorsemment for all the unpleasant things the Labour Government has done, like locking up people it doesn't like and then getting very absent minded about where it left the key. Therein lies the road to Big Brother hell...
And drawback three... I don't actually want to vote Labour. But then, in our bizarre and grossly undemocratic democracy, voting for who you actually want to win is a luxury few people can afford.
So, there it is, my horrible dilemma. And being a political geek, I can't help thinking about it. Any ideas anyone?
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyAlways vote for what you believe. If you believe the Lib Dem philosophy is the right one then vote Lib Dem. Never try to second guess your conscience.
Hmm, I'm feeling in need of moral guidance. Tomorrow I cast my vote in Britain's general election, in one of the most marginal seats in the country, and I still haven't worked out who to vote for.
Two options.
Option one. Vote Lib Dem. This is what I want to do. I'm a member of the party for God's sake. Unfortunately, where I live, the Lib Dems ...[text shortened]... dilemma. And being a political geek, I can't help thinking about it. Any ideas anyone?
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyIt really depends on your goals.
Hmm, I'm feeling in need of moral guidance. Tomorrow I cast my vote in Britain's general election, in one of the most marginal seats in the country, and I still haven't worked out who to vote for.
Two options.
Option one. Vote Lib Dem. This is what I want to do. I'm a member of the party for God's sake. Unfortunately, where I live, the Lib Dems ...[text shortened]... dilemma. And being a political geek, I can't help thinking about it. Any ideas anyone?
Rich.
Do you want to win in the short term or the long term?
Short term you vote for the least offensive party who's got a chance of winning. In your case that would be Labour.
My mum when we moved once in Scotland to Eaglesham was told by the Labour constituency man to vote liberal. Voting for him wouldn't help the cause at all.
In the long term, I presume, one of your goals will be proportional representation (at least to a degree). It could also be to clarify your consience. It could equally be to prove a point.
Then you vote for what you really, really believe in (in my case it would be the leftist marxist communist party...or whatever they're called near you).
Both voting strategies are equally mertital. It's really up to you what you want to do. Don't let either camp believe you that one is more effective than the other. They're not. They're just different on the micro/meso/macro scale of things.
If you're unemployed and you really believe the short term option will be beneficial to you, go for it.
If you believe in a bigger picture and have the means to be able to think that way...vote for that.
You, your personal position and what you believe are what ultimately will decide what you should do.
Originally posted by richhoeywe are damned voting either way.. i share your dilemma.. but think am voting for lib dem.. if the tories get it then at least i'll still reserve the right to complain..
Hmm, I'm feeling in need of moral guidance. Tomorrow I cast my vote in Britain's general election, in one of the most marginal seats in the country, and I still haven't worked out who to vote for.
Two options.
Option one. Vote Lib Dem. This is what I want to do. I'm a member of the party for God's sake. Unfortunately, where I live, the Lib Dems ...[text shortened]... dilemma. And being a political geek, I can't help thinking about it. Any ideas anyone?
Rich.
but here again, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.. labour? hmmm... if only blair steps down, then i would go with them..
na.. am voting lib dem and damn politics if they don't shock the world and get in..
sorry don't think i was of any help there...
Originally posted by sasquatch672Sure, I'll give it a go.
I'm with Del. But I wonder if you would mind taking the time to list the major parties and their platforms? I'm assuming you object to Blair chiefly because of Iraq, and what is the issue with that MP's anti-immigration campaign?
Labour is the former party of the left that's moved way over towards the centre, and sometimes to the downright right wing. It still believes in taxing more heavily to pay for public services, but it's afraid to target the taxes at those who can most afford it. While the extra cash for schools and hospitals has been welcome, the partial privatisation that's come with it has been less so. And charging fees for university is an unwelcome first for Britain. Then of course there's Iraq and the bunch of truly draconian terror laws that have come with it.
On the other hand, Labour have introduced a minimum wage, slashed unemployment and reduced child poverty, so it's not been all bad.
The Conservatives are the main opposition and the party of Margaret Thatcher. But they've run an unmitigatedly negative campaign, mainly centred around setting annual limits for the number of immigrants and asylum seekers allowed to enter the country, and introducing new laws to deal with those nasty gypsies. The Tories believe in lower taxes, less public services, and even more private involvement in healthcare than Labour. They were vigorously pro-war.
The Lib Dems, however, were anti war. They believe in targeting taxes at the richest in the population and reforming local taxation. They plan to use the extra cash to pay for free personal care for the elderly, free dental and eye checks and an end to university tuition fees. They're also the most focussed of the parties on the environment and believe in reforming our electoral system to make it less grossly unfair.
So that's it, basically. Not the most neutral rundown I'll grant you, but it gives you some idea.
Rich.
Originally posted by shavixmirCheers, it helps to be able to rationalise either decision like that. I am really pro-PR, yeah, and I'd like to play the long game, but the thought of Michael Howard at number 10 just makes me physically sick.
It really depends on your goals.
Do you want to win in the short term or the long term?
Short term you vote for the least offensive party who's got a chance of winning. In your case that would be Labour.
My mum when we moved once in Scotland to Eaglesham was told by the Labour constituency man to vote liberal. Voting for him wouldn't help the caus ...[text shortened]... personal position and what you believe are what ultimately will decide what you should do.
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyOf course you don't have to answer, rh, but I'd be interested in knowing how you voted today.
Hmm, I'm feeling in need of moral guidance. Tomorrow I cast my vote in Britain's general election, in one of the most marginal seats in the country, and I still haven't worked out who to vote for.
Two options.
Option one. Vote Lib Dem. This is what I want to do. I'm a member of the party for God's sake. Unfortunately, where I live, the Lib Dems ...[text shortened]... dilemma. And being a political geek, I can't help thinking about it. Any ideas anyone?
Rich.
Originally posted by DelmerI used to live in Finchley, the Lib Dems have no chance. I think you should vote Lib Dem, but I hope you voted Labour.
Of course you don't have to answer, rh, but I'd be interested in knowing how you voted today.
I voted Green on the hope they can beat Labour in Brighton Pavillion (Libs dems have no chance) I will feel awful if I helped split the green/labour vote and let in the Tories.
Bring on Proportional Representation.
what did you decide in the end? finchley and golders green is my constituency aswell. i voted labour, and would have advised you not to vote lib dem purely because people dont realise what some of their policies are. such as legalising cannabis and ectasy. i personally dont trust the tories, and they are 2 of the reasons i voted labour
Originally posted by richhoeyHi Rich,
Hmm, I'm feeling in need of moral guidance. Tomorrow I cast my vote in Britain's general election, in one of the most marginal seats in the country, and I still haven't worked out who to vote for.
Two options.
Option one. Vote Lib Dem. This is what I want to do. I'm a member of the party for God's sake. Unfortunately, where I live, the Lib Dems ...[text shortened]... dilemma. And being a political geek, I can't help thinking about it. Any ideas anyone?
Rich.
This is the most basic of "Chimpness" issues. Do I want to be important and make a mark or do I want to be true to myself.
The problem with the entire damned world (as I have tried to point out for the past three years) is that we all want to win. We as a species don't give a righteous damned about "right and wrong". We need to win.
Let me know how you voted. From your post, I'll bet you went for the "winning" side over your personal needs?
Hey. Don't feel bad. We all do it. Well.... some of us are content to just piss off every tribe for as far as the eye can see. Let's say that "most of us" do it.
Well, after much dithering in the polling booth, I voted Lib Dem. I felt rather guilty about it... but fortunately the Tory didn't get in. Which brings me to the subject of another thread active at the moment. God I hate Britain's electoral system!
Any thoughts on the election result incidentally? I'm disappointed the Lib Dems didn't pick up a few more seats, but overall I'm quite pleased to get a Labour Government with its wings firmly clipped.
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyGood on you.
Well, after much dithering in the polling booth, I voted Lib Dem. I felt rather guilty about it... but fortunately the Tory didn't get in. Which brings me to the subject of another thread active at the moment. God I hate Britain's electoral system!
Any thoughts on the election result incidentally? I'm disappointed the Lib Dems didn't pick up a few mo ...[text shortened]... ut overall I'm quite pleased to get a Labour Government with its wings firmly clipped.
Rich.
At least you voted the way we all must learn to do. To cling to the "winner" is a loser.
I think that parliamentarianism is a good system. It is an "indirect" method as opposed to the "up and down" system we use in the states.
The weakness of "up and downism" is that it by definition dooms and prevents "third partyism". There can only be two parties by defintion in an "up and down" vote.
The strength of said system is that there is less wasted effort and frustration overall. Twenty three percent of Britain is doomed to watch 'terrible" alliances and efforts until the next election.
In the US, fully half the population is sad and mad each turn of the screw.
But their anger motivates them. I don't know that frustration serves as well as anger. It may. With people of infinite patience.
Originally posted by richhoeyWay to go, rh. Always vote for the party, person, philosophy, issue etc. that you truly want to win. If you don't then there's not much point in voting at all.
Well, after much dithering in the polling booth, I voted Lib Dem. I felt rather guilty about it... but fortunately the Tory didn't get in. Which brings me to the subject of another thread active at the moment. God I hate Britain's electoral system!
Any thoughts on the election result incidentally? I'm disappointed the Lib Dems didn't pick up a few mo ...[text shortened]... ut overall I'm quite pleased to get a Labour Government with its wings firmly clipped.
Rich.
Just found this thread. Rich you appear to have exactly the same political views as me, to have faced exactly the same dilemma, have acted in exactly the same way, and with exactly the same result. I think we were right: tatical voting is, I'm now convinced, self-defeating in the long term, although the electoral system may seem to encourage it, and the press certainly did (the Guardian doing its best to ruin the UK election for the left wing it supports, just as it did for the US election).