Immigration

Originally posted by sasquatch672
Cute. While the piece does a nice job in exposing some of the absurdities in the debate, it's intellectually dishonest at its core.

If the eagles were supposed to represent the "voice of reason", well, they're underinformed. How many bald eagles do you know that have a grasp of economics?

Pro-illegal-immigration people are removing something c ...[text shortened]... rants. For someone to suggest less is reckless and irresponsible.

A very well though out post there bud. I think you and I see eye to eye a lot on the matter.

If we wish to do something about the illegal immigrants in this country, there are several key points we need to address.

1) Illegal immigrants ability to come here.

2) Illegal immigrants desire to come here (illegaly).

3) What to do with all the illegal immigrants that are already here.

I believe these are the key things to look at with illegal immigration. The bottom line is this, we can reform the law all we want and it won't matter worth a lick if it's not enforced. Altering a non-enforced law into another non-enforced law is pointless. A law is only of value if it is enforced, otherwise it is nothing more than an empty threat.

So, to address the points at all we must first commit to enforcing the laws we put into place. Otherwise, there is no point. A good plan is worthless if it is not put into action. Now, if we want to actually enforce the laws we creat on the issue, this is what I would propose.

1) Illegal immigrants ability to come here.
The fact of the matter is, we have expansive borders. Our capacity to prohibit physical entry into the US is, was, and always will be nominal. With some planning and resources, anyone who wants to can get across the border. The key then lies with how well they will be able to do in society once they get here. Presently, illegal immigrants are highly tolerated in our society.

I live in the south west of the US (four corners area to be specific), so we see quite a bit of illegal immigration here. Ask anyone around on the police department, calling INS is a waste of time. They typically will not respond unless the illegal immigrant has committed a violent crime or federal felony, and then it usually takes them days (or weeks) to even come take a look into the matter. And what happens if/when they do come? As far as I have observed, they typically will do anything in their power to offer a deal of citizenship in exchange for assisting them in prosecuting anyone who has helped facilitate their existence in the country. (Example: they catch 20 illegals. They offer all 20 citizinship in exchange for revealing the person who forged their ((crappy)) fake ID's). That is, if they bother to respond at all.

There are an estimated, what, 12 million illegals in this country? That's 12 million people who get by just fine despite having to fake documents and/or have employers, public officials, and land lords turn a blind eye. The employers aren't being prosecuted for knowlingly hiring illegals. Hell no. On the contrary. It's an old unscrupulous farming trick in the south west to hire a dozen illegals to pick your crop. Two weeks later when it comes time for 'pay day', you just call INS to report them all and have them carted away. Somehow, these farmers are never questioned on how/why they didn't find out that their entire staff was made up of illegals utill they had been working for them for two weeks and the job was done. Oh no, they're patted on the back for being a good citizen and doing their duty by reporting this group of illegals.....year....after year.

The local government is no better. They gotta have those votes, and what better way to earn them than through turning a blind eye and handing out social services to non-citizens. Varying from state to state, we give them drivers licenses (which lead to them getting other documentation, such as birth certificates and social security cards), we get them on the welfare pay roll, we get them on our medical subsidy, we get them in our public housing. We feed them, cloth them, house them, buy them a care and a TV and.....they don't have to do anything. They just had to get over here and tell a few lies. That's all.

And all of these people have to live somewhere, but gee, you don't see a whole lot of landlords turning in tenant for being suspected illegals (so long as they pay the rent). I still dabble in the lodging industry, and let me tell you something, if a mexican national walks into your average joe hotel, can't speak a lick of english, doesn't have an ID, but he puts a $50 bill down on the counter, odds are he's getting a room. Period. No different with more permanent housing solutions. The rentee is happy to take this rentors money, and to hell with where they came from. Why? Because they know they will not be held responsible at all. There is no accountability. Who knows what that person is doing. Maybe they're the honest john immigrant who just wants to work and make money to provide for his family. Sure. But who knows? Maybe they're setting up a meth lab. Or maybe they're part of a child slave smuggling ring. Who knows? No one, because they're a nameless no one, that no one is keeping any sort of tabs on. They are identity less, nameless faces that our society is blind to, and our country is theirs for the pillaging.

All of this is possible, and occurs today, because there is no accountability. Employers would think twice about hiring an illegal immigrant if it meant having to pay 2 years worth of back taxes, social security, a $10k fine, and 3 months in the slammer,for each one. Social services might work a little bit differently if there was regulation. If there was accountability in the management of the services. If federal ordinance was passed to prevent abuses. Joe landlord might reconsider giving safe haven to illegals if he faced prosecution for harboring of illegals, or accesory to any crims they might commit while residing at his property.

The fact of the matter is the individual can, and will, take advantage of illegal immigration so long as they believe (and are correct) that they risk little if anything by exploiting the situation to their personal economic advantage.

2) Illegals desire to come here (illegaly).

Let start by pointing out the significant key factor in my address here. The point at hand is the desire for immigrants to come here illegaly. "Illegaly" is the key word. I don't think any rational person can (or should) blame the would be immigrant for having the desire to come here. It is the appeal of doing so illegaly that is the problem.

This is two fold. The first part of the desire to immigrate illegaly comes from the ability to do so and function. This is alleviated by the address of point 1. If one can not immigrate illegaly and obtain a quality of life, where is the point? If you can't find housing, work, or social services by immigrating illegaly, why would you?

The second, and most pertinent reasons for differentiating points 1 and 2, is the inability to do so legaly. Again, I cite the large number of illegals in the country today. It is painfully obvious that there is a need for immigrant workers, far and beyond what we have permitted to enter the country legally. It seems obvious to me that we need to greatly increase and facilitate the ability of the would be immigrant to enter this country legally. I have no doubt that a vast quantity of present day illegals would have entered legally had they been given the option. Realistically, if you can enter a country legally, the only reason not to is for malicious purposes (in the legal sense). The picturesque immigrant who just wants to earn a living in the US and be a productive member of society is also the person who would have entered legally if that had been a viable option for them. I say, why not let them? They are here. They are obviously needed. Why force them to choose between obeying the law and living in this country legally or waiting in a never ending line for approval that won't come while they and their family live in squalor, despite their adament desire to work?

I can hardly blame these people for sneaking across the border. I'd probably do the same if I was in their shoes. We have work that needs to be done, they are people that want to do that work, I say welcome to America, lets get this industry a rolling! I would think these are the kind of people that you wouldn't mind being your neighbor. Quite the contrary, they'd probably be better neighbors than what you have now, as they are working hard to build a life far better than anything they have ever known.

3) What to do with all the ones that are already here.

This, my friends, is the greatest pickle in my mind, no doubt about it. What do you do with 12 million people? Certainly, it hardly seems just to hand out citizenship like candy to these people. On the converse, it hardly seems either productive nor sensible to attempt to force such a large number of people to leave the country. I'll be honest, as unjust as it is, and as much as I hate it, I can not think of a reasonable alternative to just giving citizenship to any of them that are willing to take it. I can't see anything else functioning. I hope someone else can conceive a better way, but I have not heard anything sensible yet. Assuredly, this would be terribly unfair, but it has been unfair for a long time as it is, and I think it would behoove us to simpy address it and take it as it is than to ignore the elephant in the front yard so to speak.

Originally posted by Omnislash
A very well though out post there bud. I think you and I see eye to eye a lot on the matter.

If we wish to do something about the illegal immigrants in this country, there are several key points we need to address.

1) Illegal immigrants ability to come here.

2) Illegal immigrants desire to come here (illegaly).

3) What to do with all the ill ...[text shortened]... s it is than to ignore the elephant in the front yard so to speak.

12 million is less than 5 percent of the country, the ones who are actually productive have got to be a fraction of that, and if they left, you'd see unemployment go down.

the question is why the Democratic Party, the champions of American labor, are so hot to get amnesty. you'd think they LIKE unemployment to go down.

(maybe they smell an election coming.)

Originally posted by Omnislash
...
I live in the south west of the US (four corners area to be specific), so we see quite a bit of illegal immigration here. Ask anyone around on the police department, calling INS is a waste of time. They typically will not respond unless the illegal immigrant has committed a violent crime or federal felony, and then it usually takes them days (or week ...[text shortened]... who forged their ((crappy)) fake ID's). That is, [b]if they bother to respond at all.

.[/b]

apparently there's no penalty for pretending to function as a federal agency.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
12 million is less than 5 percent of the country, the ones who are actually productive have got to be a fraction of that, and if they left, you'd see unemployment go down.

the question is why the Democratic Party, the champions of American labor, are so hot to get amnesty. you'd think they LIKE unemployment to go down.

(maybe they smell an election coming.)

I can not say, based upon my own experiences, what percentage of those here illegaly are productive. I would like to think that it is a significant portion, but I do not know, and I don't think anyone can really say. All I can say, is I would like for those who are productive to be given the ability to do it legally. I think permitting that will help us weed out the leeches as well.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
apparently there's no penalty for pretending to function as a federal agency.

So very sad, but so very true.

Originally posted by Omnislash
I can not say, based upon my own experiences, what percentage of those here illegaly are productive. I would like to think that it is a significant portion, but I do not know, and I don't think anyone can really say. All I can say, is I would like for those who are productive to be given the ability to do it legally. I think permitting that will help us weed out the leeches as well.

what about unemployment?

Originally posted by zeeblebot
what about unemployment?

What about it?

Originally posted by Omnislash
What about it?

Why would a country with any unemployed people need immigrants?

Originally posted by princeoforange
Why would a country with any unemployed people need immigrants?

Maybe the immigrants are skilled workers, and the unemployed unskilled.

Originally posted by Draxus
Perhaps I don't understand the entire argument, but I think it is more a popular opinion than a fact that "we need the illegal immigrants to work in our country." The fact is that we have plenty of people on welfare and plenty of people unemployed. I think it might be a little difficult for them to make a social change and take these jobs, but, if we were t ...[text shortened]... We would have to significantly lower the amount of "rights" that we give them though.

Personally, I find it quite frightening that a society can say it needs illegal immigrants.

The impression I get, though I might be being a little unfair, is that this statement says that it is OK to employ people with few rights because then we can have cheaper goods.

Personally I feel that if a society does not have a large enough workforce it should accept more legal immigrants and pay a fair price for them.

Originally posted by mwmiller
I have brought this up in other threads on the 'immigrant' topic, and I think it needs to be said again.

There needs to be a clarification of the terminology that is being used. There are two groups of people who are being constantly mixed into one group, or it seems that is what is being attempted. They are definitely not the same thing.

The first ...[text shortened]... the problem. The problem is ILLEGAL ALIENS. People need to stay focused on this difference.

I think some of those from your second group can be organized and classified with the first group. Most people's beef with the immigration problem isn't the fact that they are illegal (though we will use that point a lot), it is the fact that they are an economic burden to our already economically burdened bureacracy.

Migrant workers, seasonal laborers and immigrants who don't speak English (legal or not) walk into hospitals and demand care that they don't pay for, still send their children to our schools (which is free to them, but not to us) and still cause, as statistics show, the largest amount of crime in immigrant rich areas causing our society to put a lot more money into law enforcement.

Of course, not all of those situations apply to every legal and illegal immigrant. However, as far as groups go, they seem to be in the same one when it comes to figuring out who is the source of the problems.