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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    30 Apr '17 22:002 edits
    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.756487

    "A Rare Glimpse Into the Insular World of Israeli Jehovah's Witnesses:
    The state refuses to recognize them and they have been victims of harassment.
    But Jehovah's Witnesses insist that they lead normal lives and are not a dangerous cult"
    --Netta Ahituv (3 December 2016)

    "The approximately 1,600 members of the community in Israel obey the
    laws of the country, pay their taxes and believe that they are upstanding
    citizens, but refuse to fulfill one national obligation: to perform military service"

    "Opponents of Jehovah’s Witnesses are legion. In Israel, what upsets
    people is their missionary activity. ... The meticulously dressed members
    of the community do not solicit people at their initiative, conversing only
    with those who approach them and show an interest. What they usually
    get from passersby are dirty looks, sometimes supplemented with curses."

    "The Yad L’Achim organization, an Orthodox counter-missionary group
    that sees its mission as “the saving of each and every Jewish soul from
    Christian cults,” has published a detailed pamphlet decrying Jehovah’s
    Witnesses and alleging that the community collaborated with the Nazi regime."

    "Although Yad L’Achim claims to abstain from any violence against
    Jehovah’s Witnesses (or any other group), local adherents report being
    subjected to numerous forms of attack. Motti Danziger, 43, a former Jew
    who became a member of the community as a teenager, says that
    recently an ultra-Orthodox man followed him into the apartment building
    where he lives with his wife, who is also a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    The next morning, all the building’s occupants found in their mailboxes a
    letter warning that, despite Danziger’s affable exterior, he is a dangerous person
    who will try to convert them."

    "In several large assemblies of Jehovah’s Witnesses from different cities,
    participants were met with violent demonstrations. The latest such incident
    occurred this past June, when adherents who attended an assembly in
    Rishon Letzion endured attacks that included stone-throwing and
    physical assaults, apparently organized by the ultra-right Lehava
    organization (the name is an acronym, meaning “flame” ) for Prevention
    of Assimilation in the Holy Land."

    "But the primary confrontation Jehovah’s Witnesses have in Israel is with the state.
    Since 2000, they have been attempting to gain official recognition as a
    religious community. Recognition would accord them various rights,
    such as being able to marry according to their faith, as well as social,
    legal and cultural legitimacy, and certain tax benefits. They are currently
    in the midst of legal proceedings, in the course of which they realized –
    in concurrence with their lawyers and with the U.S.-based international
    center of Jehovah’s Witnesses – that most of the difficulties they
    encounter in the country are due to ignorance about them and their beliefs."

    "...some elements of Israel's religious establishment perceives them as a threat to Judaism.
    The irony of the situation is not lost on Keren Kimchi, 51, from Jehovah’s Witnesses:
    “Everywhere in the world we are regarded as enemies of Christianity,”
    she says. “Only here in Israel are we seen as Christians.”"

    Should the state of Israel officially recognize the Jehovah's Witnesses as a religious community?
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    01 May '17 20:11
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.756487

    "A Rare Glimpse Into the Insular World of Israeli Jehovah's Witnesses:
    The state refuses to recognize them and they have been victims of harassment.
    But Jehovah's Witnesses insist that they lead normal lives and are not a dangerous cult"
    --Netta Ahituv (3 December 2016)

    "The approximately 1,60 ...[text shortened]... hould the state of Israel officially recognize the Jehovah's Witnesses as a religious community?
    What is objectionable in JW litany? The door to door? Not sure why people hate JW's. Myself, I dislike ALL religions but I don't know why the specificity singling out this one religion. If anyone wants to dis a religion, why not dis one that is a REAL thug outfit: Scientology. No more a religion than I am a president.
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    01 May '17 21:061 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    What is objectionable in JW litany? The door to door? Not sure why people hate JW's. Myself, I dislike ALL religions but I don't know why the specificity singling out this one religion. If anyone wants to dis a religion, why not dis one that is a REAL thug outfit: Scientology. No more a religion than I am a president.
    "why not dis one that is a REAL thug outfit: Scientology"
    --Sonhouse

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany

    "As of 2017 German courts have so far not resolved whether to accord Scientology the
    legal status of a religious or worldview community, and different courts have reached
    contradictory conclusions.[3] The German domestic intelligence service has monitored
    the organization's activities. The German government does not recognize Scientology
    as a religion; rather, it views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes
    that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in the German constitution."

    "Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are
    barred from membership in some major political parties, and businesses and other
    employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a prospective business partner's or
    employee's association with the organization. German federal and state interior
    ministers started a process aimed at banning Scientology in late 2007, but abandoned
    the initiative a year later, finding insufficient legal grounds. Despite this, polls suggest
    that most Germans favor banning Scientology altogether."
  4. Joined
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    01 May '17 21:39
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    What is objectionable in JW litany? The door to door? Not sure why people hate JW's. Myself, I dislike ALL religions but I don't know why the specificity singling out this one religion. If anyone wants to dis a religion, why not dis one that is a REAL thug outfit: Scientology. No more a religion than I am a president.
    They are extra vocal about me being damned in hell, and about hating me. Yeah, the feeling is mutual.
  5. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    02 May '17 02:27
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka to Sonhouse
    They are extra vocal about me being damned in hell, and about hating me. Yeah, the feeling is mutual.
    Does Ash claim that some Jehovah's Witnesses approached him and, without provocation,
    were 'extra vocal' in expressing their hatred of him and claiming that he was condemned to Hell?
    Does Ash claim that he was the victim of a 'hate crime' by Jehovah's Witnesses?
  6. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
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    02 May '17 06:231 edit
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    They are extra vocal about me being damned in hell, and about hating me. Yeah, the feeling is mutual.
    Who is "they''? One could interpret that sentence as being Jewish hating scientologists or Jews hating JW's, or Scientologists hating everybody....
  7. Behind the scenes
    Joined
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    02 May '17 10:321 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "why not dis one that is a REAL thug outfit: Scientology"
    --Sonhouse

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany

    "As of 2017 German courts have so far not resolved whether to accord Scientology the
    legal status of a religious or worldview community, and different courts have reached
    contradictory conclusions.[3] The German domestic int ...[text shortened]... grounds. Despite this, polls suggest
    that most Germans favor banning Scientology altogether."
    "Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions...


    That is unfortunate, and would seem to be unfair. Compared to the plight of the average citizen in North Korea or other parts of the 3rd world however, it's certainly not the most pressing problem on the planet.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
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    02 May '17 13:06
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Who is "they''? One could interpret that sentence as being Jewish hating scientologists or Jews hating JW's, or Scientologists hating everybody....
    "They" are the gay-hating JWs. Use your brain.

    I have no clue where you got the Jews or the scientologists.
  9. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    02 May '17 19:422 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne to Sonhouse
    "They" are the gay-hating JWs. Use your brain.
    I have no clue where you got the Jews or the scientologists.
    Sonhouse pointed out that Ash's (lazy at best) usage of 'they' lacks clarity, inviting readers to assume.
    Suzianne's assumption may be factual. But one way of trolling is to insinuate without explicitly accusing.

    I note that Ash has claimed to live in quite a gay-tolerant circle in Cape Town, South Africa.
    *If* Ash has met any Jehovah Witnesses who were 'extra vocal' in expressing their hatred
    of him only because he's gay, then he should make that accusation on the record rather
    than inviting readers to jump to conclusions about his (unverifiable) personal experiences.

    "I should really be working at a gay bar like Beefcakes in town (more money in tips, there are so many
    gay men here, especially rich foreigners who have no concept of money), but I'm waaayyy too scared
    of doing body shots. I've seen one too many waiters get abused by drunk bachelorettes."
    --Ash (26 April 2017)

    By the way, would Suzianne assume that religion is fundamental to Sonhouse's belief system?
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