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Debates Forum

  1. 28 Mar '17 07:29
    http://news.sky.com/story/corbyn-almost-as-unpopular-as-trump-in-britain-according-to-poll-10815951

    This is a new low, even for him.
  2. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    28 Mar '17 07:54
    The problem with this is that the story does not state what the question was. The story uses the words "popular", "performance", and "doing a good job". So I'd like to know what the actual wording of the poll was and what order they asked the questions in before drawing any judgements.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    28 Mar '17 21:15
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    http://news.sky.com/story/corbyn-almost-as-unpopular-as-trump-in-britain-according-to-poll-10815951

    This is a new low, even for him.
    Stay happy Toryboy
  4. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    28 Mar '17 21:27
    I have to admit that it's a bit worrying how Corbyn is being rubbished in the media.
    What the hell do the English want?

    He's not corrupt
    He wants jobs for the poor
    He wants social housing
    He wants people to get on in life.
    He's anti-war
    He's anti-discrimination

    Now whether one agrees with his means or not, he's basically a very decent human being.

    Why is everybody so keen to slash him down?

    Doesn't anyone else find that slightly worrying?
  5. 28 Mar '17 21:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought to Ash
    The problem with this is that the story does not state what the question was. The story uses the words "popular", "performance", and "doing a good job". So I'd like to know what the actual wording of the poll was and what order they asked the questions in before drawing any judgements.
    It's true that the wording of questions influences the results of surveys.

    When people are asked directly and explicitly, 'Are you racist?', they almost always deny it.
    But when they are asked about their racial attitudes in less overtly confrontational ways,
    they often implicitly admit their racism.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    28 Mar '17 22:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I have to admit that it's a bit worrying how Corbyn is being rubbished in the media.
    What the hell do the English want?

    He's not corrupt
    He wants jobs for the poor
    He wants social housing
    He wants people to get on in life.
    He's anti-war
    He's anti-discrimination

    Now whether one agrees with his means or not, he's basically a very decent human bei ...[text shortened]...
    Why is everybody so keen to slash him down?

    Doesn't anyone else find that slightly worrying?
    Some debates are too tiresome to waste time on.

    What went wrong for Labour between 1997 and 2007 can be debated at length without getting away from the reality that, after a decade of optimism, voters turned against Labour and even after the disastrous record of the coalition government, gave the Tories an unexpected and rather slim election victory which they have turned into an electoral dictatorship. In Scotland Labour were wiped out and have not revived yet.

    Again without analysing the why or wherefore, Labour's support collapsed before Corbyn was elected leader of the party. If he has not been able to prevent that collapse from persisting, then it might be observed that he also has not been able to change the minds of over 170 Labour members of parliament, who continually and overtly work to damage him and to attack the half million party members who support him, describing us as extremists and worse. I see no good reason to expect any party to win public support with that level of internal division. You know that Lord Sainsbury used to donate millions to the party - now he gives his donations to a pressure group on the right of the party. Blair used to lead the prty - he is now using his millions to set up a pressure group to undermine it. The party Corbyn leads has less money than UKIP and it is certainly struggling, but it is not a party to be purchased in this way by those with the deepest pockets.

    There is without doubt a deep division within the party and that will not go away. One way to heal the division would be to delete one segment of the party and make it vanish into some deep hole. So which part would we wish to place underwater in concrete boots?

    On the one hand, we could restore the leadership of the parliamentary party, the one that refused to oppose austerity, refused to oppose attacks on the disabled and on welfare generally, refused to oppose privatisation, especially of the NHS. That would equate to Americans voting to restore the Clintons to power - and that is not going to happen lightly. In the UK, this type of politics is more dead than the Dodo and Tony Blair's and Lord Sainsbury's millions are not sufficient to restore it to any semblance of life. But you may disagree and want to see the return of those Zombies.

    The alternative is to allow the Left to lead Labour as a party so radically extreme that it aspires to a watered down version of so called Scandinavian Socialism. Sadly, even to shift the country slightly in that direction now requires immense struggle, because the radical shift to the Right under the Tories has been so comprehensive and stunning. To give only one example, the National Health Service, which many foolishly imagine to be alive and well, is no more than a brand name and has to be reconstructed from a total shambles of private contracts. The NHS is failing by design and the party intentionally tearing it apart - they set out their plans in writing years ago - is described as centrist and moderate!!

    So we're told that Corbyn is not a realist, that he is too extreme and too far left. What drivel. Then we are told he is the wrong leader by people who would not support our policies if we were lead by Jesus Christ himself. Would you prefer a public school educated nobleman of impeccable upbringing, with superb speaking skills and absolute self assurance, able to mingle on equal and relaxed terms with the elite of our nation? We had Tony Benn who fitted that description and more to perfection and he was vilified because he was on the left. It is nothing to do with Corbyn's failings - no matter who gets the job, the media will attack any leader who seeks to move the party to the left and challenge the neoliberal elite.

    What the English media want is a Tory government. What the English want is hopefully open to persuasion. But what Labour Party members want is a socialist leader of integrity who they can work day in and day out to support without fear of betrayal. When we get offered a better candidate than Corbyn we will be delighted to consider a contest.

    You know something people pay insufficient attention to is the sheer hard slog put in by party members throughout the year, constantly working on electioneering in a plethora of different elections and byelections, and campaigning on countless specific issues. I do not refer to myself - I do no such thing, it is true. They do not want to be treated with disrespect by their so called leaders. They are not an army of drones willing to be pushed into whatever contortions the national party may demand of them. That is how Stalin operated and that is how the Blairites have set up the party to operate - it is not how a democratic party will be allowed to operate. If they want their party to work for them, then the members are the party and the members voted overwhelmingly for Corbyn.

    But Corbyn is not fully in control of the machine, he does not get the support of his MPs nor of the party professionals, and he is opposed by an old guard throughout the country of local elected officials seeking to retain their status. His opponents in their pressure groups get more money from their wealthy backers than the entire party gets for Corbyn to lead. So stop expecting miracles. If Labour is struggling, it is struggling as a party. Getting rid of Corbyn would have no beneficial effect whatsoever because he is not the problem. The media will never tolerate a left wing party leader. The media want fascism and may well get it. Let's see what the English choose.
  7. 28 Mar '17 23:59 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [b]Some debates are too tiresome to waste time on.
    But apparently not this one! ~ from the tiatribe that follows
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 Mar '17 00:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    The problem with this is that the story does not state what the question was. The story uses the words "popular", "performance", and "doing a good job". So I'd like to know what the actual wording of the poll was and what order they asked the questions in before drawing any judgements.
    The question was:

    "Do you approve or disapprove of the way .....................

    Jeremy Corbyn is handling his job as Leader of the Opposition?"

    http://www.businessinsider.com/new-poll-corbyn-trump-brexit-theresa-may-conservatives-labour-2017-3

    EDIT: This is the press release from Gfk from which there are link to the survey's questionnaire, methodology and data tables: http://www.gfk.com/en-gb/insights/press-release/new-gfk-political-poll-shows-jeremy-corbyn-as-unpopular-as-president-trump-among-gb-adults/
  9. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    29 Mar '17 05:29
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    It's true that the wording of questions influences the results of surveys.

    When people are asked directly and explicitly, 'Are you racist?', they almost always deny it.
    But when they are asked about their racial attitudes in less overtly confrontational ways,
    they often implicitly admit their racism.
    So, are you?
  10. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    29 Mar '17 05:43
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Some debates are too tiresome to waste time on.

    What went wrong for Labour between 1997 and 2007 can be debated at length without getting away from the reality that, after a decade of optimism, voters turned against Labour and even after the disastrous record of the coalition government, gave the Tories an unexpected and rather slim election victory whi ...[text shortened]... ng party leader. The media want fascism and may well get it. Let's see what the English choose.
    Great post.