Lockheed Martin’s $1.7 trillion F-35 fighter jet -Saga

@metal-brain said
You don't have problem with how much fossil fuel it burns? It is a CO2 emitting machine that is grossly over priced.

My roller coaster idea is a good one then. It would reduce carbon emissions, it would be mad fun, and there'd be no impact on US security.

@athousandyoung said
Because we're a capitalist society and that's how we do things. It works to keep the USA on top of the pecking order. It's not unusual; Japan, France and Germany are among the nations which use private industry to buy weapons.

Armalite made the m16 rifles, Jeep made the Jeeps of WW2, Porsche made tanks for Germany in WW2, Mitsubishi made fighter planes for Japan in WW2, Dassault makes the Rafale fighter plane for France, etc

Once a company like Lockheed secures a multi decade contract like this they essentially turn into a government agency. The contract can conceivably go away, giving the appearance of capitalism, but it won't. They just keep going, moving as slow as they can, with cost overruns in the hundreds of billions with very few questions asked. The only difference is they can distribute profits to shareholders, so in the end it costs taxpayers a lot more.

@wildgrass said
Once a company like Lockheed secures a multi decade contract like this they essentially turn into a government agency. The contract can conceivably go away, giving the appearance of capitalism, but it won't. They just keep going, moving as slow as they can, with cost overruns in the hundreds of billions with very few questions asked. The only difference is they can distribute profits to shareholders, so in the end it costs taxpayers a lot more.

The government cancels overpriced weapons programs all the time e.g. Zumwalt and the LCS

@athousandyoung said
The government cancels overpriced weapons programs all the time e.g. Zumwalt and the LCS

Yeah the government cancels intramural stuff all the time too. But Lockheed has gone over contracted budget by way more than the entire cost of zumwalt, over and over on the f35. They manipulated the system to put their facilities in districts that have congressional members on key appropriations committees. This program functions as an untouchable arm of the US government and a permanent revenue stream for Lockheed stockholders.

@wildgrass said
Do you think the f35 is not government?

right, it is not government.

@wildgrass said
Once a company like Lockheed secures a multi decade contract like this they essentially turn into a government agency. The contract can conceivably go away, giving the appearance of capitalism, but it won't. They just keep going, moving as slow as they can, with cost overruns in the hundreds of billions with very few questions asked. The only difference is they can distribute profits to shareholders, so in the end it costs taxpayers a lot more.

so in the end it costs taxpayers a lot more.

I disagree, wg, sorry. government is notorious for wasting money, ^lots^ of money, because they do not have
the profit motive, nor do they have any real ownership responsibilities.

@earl-of-trumps said
so in the end it costs taxpayers a lot more.

I disagree, wg, sorry. government is notorious for wasting money, ^lots^ of money, because they do not have
the profit motive, nor do they have any real ownership responsibilities.

All the R&D money is coming from government. A literal blank check. Where's the profit motive? Profiting off tax dollars?

This plane does not get built in a true capitalist framework. It's way too expensive.

@earl-of-trumps said
right, it is not government.

What is it then?

A grift.

A con.

Crony-capitalist garbage.

Exactly what Eisenhower warned us about. It's the disastrous rise of misplaced power. The system that defunds the NIH in order to pay for this boondoggle is fundamentally unbalanced.

@wildgrass said
All the R&D money is coming from government. A literal blank check. Where's the profit motive? Profiting off tax dollars?

This plane does not get built in a true capitalist framework. It's way too expensive.

Yes, I agree.
You cannot expect to have lots of competition to choose from when the product is this leading-edge and hi tech.

you have the one.

@wildgrass said
What is it then?

A grift.

A con.

Crony-capitalist garbage.

Exactly what Eisenhower warned us about. It's the disastrous rise of misplaced power. The system that defunds the NIH in order to pay for this boondoggle is fundamentally unbalanced.

I cannot disagree with you, although the world-wide sales of this craft are beyond expectations.
Perhaps the government can lean on the company to kick some of that unforeseen profit back to the gov in the form of reduced prices.

@earl-of-trumps said
I cannot disagree with you, although the world-wide sales of this craft are beyond expectations.
Perhaps the government can lean on the company to kick some of that unforeseen profit back to the gov in the form of reduced prices.

You act like this jet emerged from a small govt funded grant projext. It's not. They'll never make that back in profit and never would have built it on capitalist principles alone. Pay it back? The military told Lockheed what it wanted and Lockheed built it, allowed a socialist government to absorb losses, and then privatized all their eventual financial gains.

You can't have small government and a global empire at the same time. Pick one.

@wildgrass said
You act like this jet emerged from a small govt funded grant projext. It's not. They'll never make that back in profit and never would have built it on capitalist principles alone. Pay it back? The military told Lockheed what it wanted and Lockheed built it, allowed a socialist government to absorb losses, and then privatized all their eventual financial gains.

You can't have small government and a global empire at the same time. Pick one.

This one's easy, wildman, small governmentp.

@earl-of-trumps said
This one's easy, wildman, small governmentp.

Where in America can you command the highest salary?

- doctors? nope.
- entrepreneurs? nope
- bankers? nope

It's the DC beltway. Military contractors and lobbyists. The Pentagon admits it wastes hundreds of billions per year in excessive administrative costs. They say it won't impact military readiness to cut costs. And yet the military budget keeps going up. Limited government conservatives should be advocating for shrinking defense spending by 50% or more. But they don't. Why?

@wildgrass said
Where in America can you command the highest salary?

- doctors? nope.
- entrepreneurs? nope
- bankers? nope

It's the DC beltway. Military contractors and lobbyists. The Pentagon admits it wastes hundreds of billions per year in excessive administrative costs. They say it won't impact military readiness to cut costs. And yet the military budget keeps going up. Limite ...[text shortened]... nservatives should be advocating for shrinking defense spending by 50% or more. But they don't. Why?

Being rich provides the best income in the USA.

@athousandyoung said
Being rich provides the best income in the USA.

People are rich everywhere. But...

Stafford, Loundon, and Fairfax County, Virginia are the three richest areas of the entire country.

Is it a coincidence that they're all in the DC beltway?

https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/603232/the-real-richest-counties-in-the-us