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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    26 Feb '13 12:17
    The Economist had a great article about "The Nordic Model" the other day, and I was stunned to find strong evidence that the success of Sweden etc. has ZERO to do with high tax rates! Sweden and co. used to be on the socialist path to disaster -- back in the 1970's -- but they apparently realized it and turned things around. Today Sweden has a public debt as a percent of GDP below 40% (vs. over 100% for the USA) and a corporate tax rate in the low 20%'s (vs. 35% for the USA).

    Mr Obama, are you listening? We SHOULD become like Sweden because they are a bunch of Thatcher-Reagan-Schroederites!

    To me that article puts the nail in the coffin of all socialists (like Krugman) who want to argue for high taxes and spending leading to prosperity. Even the "highly touted" Nordic model isn't that. If we move from Sweden to Agenda 2010 for Germany -- it brought them prosperity. Thatcher and Reagan's reduced governments? Prosperity. On the other hand uncontrolled socialist spending results in France, Greece, Spain, Italy, etc.

    So when Obama wants to make the US "more like Europe", he has to take care which part he wants us to be more like. Wild socialist spending inevitably leads to disaster -- it may take awhile -- but that's what taking the wrong track means.

    P.S. KN, I find it odd that you have never really stressed the pro-capitalist characteristics of the Nordic countries. And by the way -- the article also confirms that immigrants are beginning to screw up the system because they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
  2. 26 Feb '13 13:03 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    The Economist had a great article about "The Nordic Model" the other day, and I was stunned to find strong evidence that the success of Sweden etc. has ZERO to do with high tax rates! Sweden and co. used to be on the socialist path to disaster -- back in the 1970's -- but they apparently realized it and turned things around. Today Sweden has a e they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
    Its not quite relevant but I have this theory 'Maggy Thatcher Socalism' basically the rich can be as rich as they like, so long as those on minimum wage or benefits are OK. In Holland, if your made unemployed you get half your salary as benefits, a socalist country could not afford to do that but if you have a healthy mix of minimum wage and KPMG types, as Holland does, you can. I don't know to be honest if Sweden is the same, but its well run , no doubt. The Economist likes Scandinavian countries , I've seen a few positive things about them in there.
  3. 26 Feb '13 15:29
    Originally posted by spruce112358

    P.S. KN, I find it odd that you have never really stressed the pro-capitalist characteristics of the Nordic countries. And by the way -- the article also confirms that immigrants are beginning to screw up the system because they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
    P.S. KN, I find it odd that you have never really stressed the pro-capitalist characteristics of the Nordic countries.

    I did. Would companies like Nokia, Volvo, Arla etc. be doing business in Northern Europe if it was such a terrible place to do business? Innovation in the private sector is a vital part of any healthy economy.

    It's interesting that you didn't mention income tax, petrol taxes or VAT, or the way health care and education are funded. You might want to look that up before you jump to any conclusions.

    On a side note, I'm fine with low corporate tax rates. A corporation is not a person (despite what SCOTUS might say), and as long as any CEOs who are leeching a lot of the profits are paying a big chunk in income taxes, there isn't really any harm done.

    And by the way -- the article also confirms that immigrants are beginning to screw up the system because they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?

    Haven't noticed that myself. I was born in a country where 30% of the population is immigrants and the economy there seems to be doing fine. But hey, what do I know? I'm only an immigrant.
  4. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    26 Feb '13 15:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    The Economist had a great article about "The Nordic Model" the other day, and I was stunned to find strong evidence that the success of Sweden etc. has ZERO to do with high tax rates! Sweden and co. used to be on the socialist path to disaster -- back in the 1970's -- but they apparently realized it and turned things around. Today Sweden has a e they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
    Corporation tax isn't the only form of revenue. Sweden's total tax burden (tax raised as a percentage of GDP) is around 47% of GDP, compared with the U.K. at around 36% of GDP, with the US at about 27% of GDP (see the graph on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tax-Revenues-As-GDP-Percentage-%2875-05%29.JPG). Sweden has high tax rates, the basis of your argument is false. The Nordic countries reduced their welfare states somewhat, but didn't come anywhere near abolishing them. You're distorting facts to suit your argument in a really obvious way that can be checked in 5 minutes.
  5. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    26 Feb '13 16:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    The Economist had a great article about "The Nordic Model" the other day, and I was stunned to find strong evidence that the success of Sweden etc. has ZERO to do with high tax rates! Sweden and co. used to be on the socialist path to disaster -- back in the 1970's -- but they apparently realized it and turned things around. Today Sweden has a e they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
    Sweden's corporate tax rate is comparatively low, but their personal tax rate is among the highest in the world, topping out at 57%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
  6. 26 Feb '13 16:29
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Corporation tax isn't the only form of revenue. Sweden's total tax burden (tax raised as a percentage of GDP) is around 47% of GDP, compared with the U.K. at around 36% of GDP, with the US at about 27% of GDP (see the graph on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tax-Revenues-As-GDP-Percentage-%2875-05%29.JPG). Sweden has high tax rates, the basis of your ...[text shortened]... orting facts to suit your argument in a really obvious way that can be checked in 5 minutes.
    AND they provide Universal Healthcare. The OP pretty much fell on its face.
  7. 26 Feb '13 19:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    AND they provide Universal Healthcare. The OP pretty much fell on its face.
    That must have brought flashbacks to ya from when you fell on your head as a child. Or did ya fail to read and understand the instructions for your rip chord?
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    26 Feb '13 20:07
    Swedish Bikini Team

    http://www.uspsa2.org/sbt.htm
  9. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    27 Feb '13 22:05
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    The Economist had a great article about "The Nordic Model" the other day, and I was stunned to find strong evidence that the success of Sweden etc. has ZERO to do with high tax rates! Sweden and co. used to be on the socialist path to disaster -- back in the 1970's -- but they apparently realized it and turned things around. [b]Today Sweden has a ...[text shortened]... e they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
    I think France would be an excellent model for America. Excellent education, superior healthcare, high life expectancy, clean enviornment. Of course there would be only a few nordic supermodels (but there wouldn't be any hillbilly handfishin either!)
  10. Standard member vivify
    rain
    28 Feb '13 02:14
    What the hell, I seriously thought this would be about Swedish models.
  11. 28 Feb '13 02:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    The Economist had a great article about "The Nordic Model" the other day, and I was stunned to find strong evidence that the success of Sweden etc. has ZERO to do with high tax rates! Sweden and co. used to be on the socialist path to disaster -- back in the 1970's -- but they apparently realized it and turned things around. [b]Today Sweden has a e they don't have the same cultural work ethic as the Scandanavians. What did I say?
    This thread's title seems like a tabloid story's headline (hinting 'sex sells'.
    How well could a 'Nordic supermodel' fill out a dirndl?

    Was Elin Nordegren a secret agent who has succeeded in transferring wealth
    (Tiger Woods's) from the United States to her native Sweden?
  12. 28 Feb '13 14:49
    Originally posted by bill718
    I think France would be an excellent model for America. Excellent education, superior healthcare, high life expectancy, clean enviornment. Of course there would be only a few nordic supermodels (but there wouldn't be any hillbilly handfishin either!)
    Have you ever been to Paris or Lyon? Hardly the epitome of a clean environment.
  13. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    04 Mar '13 12:59
    Originally posted by bill718
    I think France would be an excellent model for America. Excellent education, superior healthcare, high life expectancy, clean enviornment. Of course there would be only a few nordic supermodels (but there wouldn't be any hillbilly handfishin either!)
    Especially with its collapsing economy and it's mass exodus of its wealthiest citizens due to a 75% tax rate.

    I always enjoy people who say the US should be more like Europe. Which part of "total collapse of society" do you not understand?
  14. 04 Mar '13 13:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Especially with its collapsing economy and it's mass exodus of its wealthiest citizens due to a 75% tax rate.

    I always enjoy people who say the US should be more like Europe. Which part of "total collapse of society" do you not understand?
    true... that banking policy they are coming up with.... the EU is great compared with no EU, but the biggest pile of beurocratic.... compared to anything else.
  15. 04 Mar '13 14:55
    Originally posted by e4chris
    true... that banking policy they are coming up with.... the EU is great compared with no EU, but the biggest pile of beurocratic.... compared to anything else.
    National goverments like to blame the EU to distract from domestic woes. The fact of the matter is the EU's budget is tiny compared to national budgets and the scope of its influence is small. That's not to say there is no room for improvement in organizational structure, however. For one I would like the EP to be elected on a European level rather than in a two-tiered way that weighs different Europeans differently - why does a Maltese have a bigger say about the EP than you or me? Also, the EP should appoint the Commission directly rather than just approving it.