Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    11 Aug '17 14:17
    I've got the solution for North Korea!

    Make them a US state and once they refuse to participate in Obamacare turn the IRS against them. Once the IRS is done with them, they will be praying for nukes to fail down on them.

    I pity the fools.
  2. Zugzwang
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    11 Aug '17 16:081 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I've got the solution for North Korea!

    Make them a US state and once they refuse to participate in Obamacare turn the IRS against them. Once the IRS is done with them, they will be praying for nukes to fail down on them.

    I pity the fools.
    The Republican Party never would welcome adding a state of 25 million
    non-white people (including many leftists) unless they could not vote.

    Suzianne has written much about the Republican Party's efforts to prevent non-white Americans
    from voting, for which she attributes Donald Trump's victory in the 2016 Presidential election.
    Most white men and most white women voted for Donald Trump.
  3. Joined
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    11 Aug '17 16:18
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The Republican Party never would welcome adding a state of 25 million
    non-white people (including many leftists) unless they could not vote.
    Sheet. The dims want more tax $ slaves too. Plus. In case you haven't heard. Besides giving the illegal DL's they are going to let them vote in their state of residency up to governor.
  4. Joined
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    11 Aug '17 16:261 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The Republican Party never would welcome adding a state of 25 million
    non-white people (including many leftists) unless they could not vote.
    Since when does the Pubes do anything? They sit around complaining about things like Obamacare and create legislation to repeal it but when they have someone in the Oval Office to sign it they sit on their hands and complain some more.

    No, the Pubes are just their to whine and for your personal amusement. Korea is already a collectivist utopia but slightly more Progressive than California.
  5. Joined
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    12 Aug '17 15:28
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    No, the civil wars in those two countries were/are driven by the People's desire to be rid of a dictator. Did the US sends arms to rebels in each? Probably, but the rebellions would have occurred whatever the US did; these weren't small scale coups done by a rather small cliques such as the ones which the US planned in Iran, Chile and other places but m ...[text shortened]... culous tendency to think that the US government controls all things, good or evil, in the world.
    You believe myths about Gaddafi, not actual facts.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/
  6. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Aug '17 16:04
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The WMD argument for invading Iraq was a fraud and those making it knew it (well maybe not GWB - he might have been that dumb). That is why they rushed to invade before allowingdecent prospects in their own lands. the inspectors to finish their job; they knew if they had, they would not have found any evidence of an existing WMD program.

    There is n ...[text shortened]... are welcome to to such fantasies.

    That said, I did not support Western intervention in Libya.
    It is risky to imagine we can classify political groupings in Libya (for example) using the language of Western politics.

    It is even risky to insist that the boundaries of Libya, Algeria, Morocco et al mean to the North Africans what they mean to Europeans and Americans. These borders represent Europe's carving up of the African pie in the C19th. Libya became an Italian colony from 1910 to 1947 so has a distinctive history compared to its neighbours but the boundaries on all sides are very porous.

    It is not contentious to say that there was a movement within Libya to resist and even get rid of Gaddaffi. The danger is to assume that this was a Western style popular demand for a Western style democratic system and Western values. One element in their politics will have been western influenced by all means but the major driver in North African popular politics is the horrible history of Western (especially French) imperialism, the racist exclusion of Muslims from the rights of citizenship in their own lands, and the desire to replace European values with African ones, primarily versions of Islam. One significant aspect of this is unavoidably support for fundamentalist Islamic political movements including ISIS.

    There is a danger of my post also caricaturing and over simplifying, which is futile. The point I am making though is that western intervention may have been sold to the Western public in terms of democracy and freedom versus dictatorship and tyranny, but that is nonsense, a fairy story, as always in this post-colonial era.

    To test the level of nonsense involved, consider this - it implies that the people of North Africa are crying out for the opportunity to restore the political values of the European empires, in which they were until recently (and in many respects they are still) treated with insulting condescension and locked out of all opportunities. It has taken a huge struggle to achieve some level of independence from European imperial control - the North African people are more likely to want to increase that independence, not lose it again for a chimera.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Aug '17 16:22
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    It is risky to imagine we can classify political groupings in Libya (for example) using the language of Western politics.

    It is even risky to insist that the boundaries of Libya, Algeria, Morocco et al mean to the North Africans what they mean to Europeans and Americans. These borders represent Europe's carving up of the African pie in the C19th. Liby ...[text shortened]... n people are more likely to want to increase that independence, not lose it again for a chimera.
    I never suggested nor implied that the rebellion in Libya was fueled by some desire to impose "Western values" or some such on the Libyan People.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Aug '17 16:261 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    You believe myths about Gaddafi, not actual facts.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/
    Actually I don't believe any of those "myths".

    EDIT: Well, maybe 2: there were numerous reports that Libyan warplanes and helicopters did fire on protesters and the article doesn't present any evidence they didn't. At any rate, it is undeniable that Gaddafi used lethal force against protesters.
  9. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Aug '17 16:362 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I never suggested nor implied that the rebellion in Libya was fueled by some desire to impose "Western values" or some such on the Libyan People.
    Well you said very little but implied a lot in the short sentence: "There is no such thing as a "good dictator" and the Libyan People did rise in rebellion against Gaddafi. If you think they did that because of the "gold dinar", you are welcome to to such fantasies."

    As regards the "gold dinar," nobody suggests the people rose up to oppose or support a new currrency. There is a suggestion that this influenced the West's desire to intervene and secure the deposition of Gaddafi with no authentic concern for the subsequent governance of the country. For the West, chaos can be preferable to the alternatives.

    So you see already how you are distorting the discussion there.

    Then, when you comment on the autocratic nature of Gaddafi's rule, which none of us would want to support uncritically, you need to recall that the West did in fact support it for decades and had very close ties with Gaddafi. He was our little poster boy good dictator when he volunteered to give up WMDs for example - such a great example to our other dictator friends and allies. He was a jolly good fellow with his Bedouin tent in New York City at the UN. He was a great pal to Tony Blair and more than a little put out when his Western pals suddenly turned against him and allowed his killing.

    What the people wanted in their rebellion is not a single thing or agenda - there were and still are diverse groups of people across Libya wanting different things. Pity the West has such a simplified picture of the Muslim world and of Africa. Pity we listen to our media and our governments with such innocent credulity.

    It's not just what you did say that I commented on. It's what was implied and unsaid. It seemed worth exploring.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Aug '17 16:44
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Well you said very little but implied a lot in the short sentence: "There is no such thing as a "good dictator" and the Libyan People did rise in rebellion against Gaddafi. If you think they did that because of the "gold dinar", you are welcome to to such fantasies."

    As regards the "gold dinar," nobody suggests the people rose up to oppose or su ...[text shortened]... at you did say that I commented on. It's what was implied and unsaid. It seemed worth exploring.
    I forgot nothing. I already dealt with the "West supports dictators" argument; I'm not a member of any Western government and have supported very little of the West's foreign policy towards "Third World" states.

    If you followed the conversation, you'd know that I was replying to MB's claims that the rebellion itself was nothing more than a Western creation with little support among the Libyan People. This is nonsense.

    And, again, in case you missed it, I did not support Western military intervention in Libya.
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Aug '17 17:26
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I forgot nothing. I already dealt with the "West supports dictators" argument; I'm not a member of any Western government and have supported very little of the West's foreign policy towards "Third World" states.

    If you followed the conversation, you'd know that I was replying to MB's claims that the rebellion itself was nothing more than a Western cr ...[text shortened]...

    And, again, in case you missed it, I did not support Western military intervention in Libya.
    Yes that was nonsense.
  12. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    13 Aug '17 18:081 edit
  13. Joined
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    13 Aug '17 19:20
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I forgot nothing. I already dealt with the "West supports dictators" argument; I'm not a member of any Western government and have supported very little of the West's foreign policy towards "Third World" states.

    If you followed the conversation, you'd know that I was replying to MB's claims that the rebellion itself was nothing more than a Western cr ...[text shortened]...

    And, again, in case you missed it, I did not support Western military intervention in Libya.
    It is not nonsense.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/many_libyans_appear_to_back_gaddafi/2011/03/24/ABHShlRB_story.html?utm_term=.9834d56cf8e2
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    13 Aug '17 20:19
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    It is not nonsense.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/many_libyans_appear_to_back_gaddafi/2011/03/24/ABHShlRB_story.html?utm_term=.9834d56cf8e2
    I'm sure many Libyans did back Gaddafi.

    And many did not and rose up against him, first in peaceful protest and when those were met with lethal force, by force of arms as they were morally justified to do.
  15. Standard membershavixmir
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    14 Aug '17 07:51
    Originally posted by @whodey
    The countries who have nukes try to stop others from having them. Depending on the country, this determination may vary.

    As Obama showed the world, those countries that choose to abandon their WMD program are not in the least bit safer. In fact, it may be the nail in their coffin.
    Obama? What about Bush?
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