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Debates Forum

  1. 14 May '14 14:23
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/14/obamacare-contractor-pays-employees-to-do-nothing-whistleblower-says/?intcmp=HPBucket

    I wonder if this increases or decreases our average health care bill.
  2. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    14 May '14 14:26
    Originally posted by techsouth
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/14/obamacare-contractor-pays-employees-to-do-nothing-whistleblower-says/?intcmp=HPBucket

    I wonder if this increases or decreases our average health care bill.
    Laws of economics are silly so we can never know.
  3. 14 May '14 14:27
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    Laws of economics are silly so we can never know.
    All that we can be certain of is that capitalism and or a free market is untenable. All other tyrannical economic theories have merit.
  4. 14 May '14 15:35
    Originally posted by whodey
    All that we can be certain of is that capitalism and or a free market is untenable. All other tyrannical economic theories have merit.
    How many "tyrannical economic theories" do you know? Can you describe them?
  5. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    14 May '14 19:41
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    How many "tyrannical economic theories" do you know? Can you describe them?
    Socialism...communism...central planning.

    Idiot.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    14 May '14 21:50
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Socialism...communism...central planning.

    Idiot.
    Of course no one is elevated by putting the other fellow down, there's only an illusion of supremacy.
    Wajoma.
  7. 15 May '14 01:10 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Socialism...communism...central planning.

    Idiot.
    You forgot unbridled corporate capitalism.

    Any economic system can be corrupted.
  8. 15 May '14 07:44
    Originally posted by techsouth
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/14/obamacare-contractor-pays-employees-to-do-nothing-whistleblower-says/?intcmp=HPBucket

    I wonder if this increases or decreases our average health care bill.
    fox news, huh?
    have any other source less... foxy?
  9. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    15 May '14 08:07
    Originally posted by techsouth
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/14/obamacare-contractor-pays-employees-to-do-nothing-whistleblower-says/?intcmp=HPBucket

    I wonder if this increases or decreases our average health care bill.
    Sounds a lot like another big guvamint debacle occurring here in Aus:

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2013/s3910183.htm

    This from the ABC the national broadcaster who are notoriously pro- gummint especially if the gummint is lefty labour.
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 May '14 09:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Sounds a lot like another big guvamint debacle occurring here in Aus:

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2013/s3910183.htm

    This from the ABC the national broadcaster who are notoriously pro- gummint especially if the gummint is lefty labour.
    Now he's just spoken in Parliament about the issue a short time ago.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: To date, the NBN has been the most wasteful infrastructure project in our history, but we are where we are and let me assure the house that under this Government we can complete this project as we promised - sooner, at less cost to taxpayers and more affordably for consumers.

    Our first step in that mission is to end the spin and wishful thinking and embrace reality. This is the beginning of the era of truth on broadband, the beginning of an era when we will have facts to work with, objective analysis instead of political spin.
    Large scale projects are incredibly difficult to manage well and require people to make strategic decisions on a rational basis. This is not assisted by having to do so under the scrutiny of people with an axe to grind so politics is not easy. However, every rational project plan has a risk analysis and a method of reviewing progress against targets to identify when problems arise and take remedial action. The worst mindset possible for this task is to be unable to admit anything ever goes wrong or to admit failings in the initial plan. Even so, one of the rational ways to manage large projects is to review progress and if necessary make strategic changes, as is happening in this case.

    Failings in project management are widespread in both the public and the private sectors. The solution would be to stick with the horse and plough and avoid anything that might be a bit hard.
  11. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    15 May '14 11:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [quote]Now he's just spoken in Parliament about the issue a short time ago.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: To date, the NBN has been the most wasteful infrastructure project in our history, but we are where we are and let me assure the house that under this Government [b]we can complete this project as we promised - sooner, at less cost to taxpayers and more afforda ...[text shortened]... olution would be to stick with the horse and plough and avoid anything that might be a bit hard.
    The solution is that guvamint does not become involved in these projects. If there is a demand for it the private sector can duke it out for who does it and those financing it will be doing so voluntarily.
  12. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    15 May '14 11:47
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [quote]Now he's just spoken in Parliament about the issue a short time ago.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: To date, the NBN has been the most wasteful infrastructure project in our history, but we are where we are and let me assure the house that under this Government [b]we can complete this project as we promised - sooner, at less cost to taxpayers and more afforda ...[text shortened]... olution would be to stick with the horse and plough and avoid anything that might be a bit hard.
    You realise when Turnbull says 'this government' he's not talking about the guvamint that started the project. And when he says "we can complete this project as we promised' he's not talking about the original promise, right?
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 May '14 17:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    You realise when Turnbull says 'this government' he's not talking about the guvamint that started the project. And when he says "we can complete this project as we promised' he's not talking about the original promise, right?
    Change of administration in charge of government is not directly relevant to this discussion. Government remains the project owner. The new administration obviously has a vested interest in making the previous administration look bad of course. All problems are their fault, all solutions are our clever work. But that is just politics - let's be less naive about it.
    Well, essentially it comes down to significant increases in the cost of construction. I think it was very much underestimated just how much, how difficult it was going to be to mobilise enough construction workers to get this rollout happening.

    Of course, we had the asbestos issues where the network rollout had to be stopped while Telstra investigated issues with asbestos in its pits. Earlier this year NBN Co had to take over the rollout from its contractor in the Northern Territory because things were so bad. And so that's the main reason the costs have blown out
    This is not some stupid agency blowing money without care. It is a complex project hitting problems in the real world.

    A project starts out with assumptions. Turns out they require review and change over time. Big deal. So then the task of the project owner is to review the objectives and make decisions about carrying on or not, and changing the goalposts or not. That is what happens in any rationally managed project.
    I'll take you back to April when the Coalition first released its broadband policy. It stipulated that the vast majority of homes in Australia would have access to 25 megabits per second speed and that's a minimum by 2016.

    Now it's basically, this reviews found that the Coalition's plan won't even come close to that. Only 43 per cent of homes will have access to that 25 megabit per second in 2016.

    However, the Coalition also promised that a vast majority of Australians would have access to even faster speeds than that by 2019, so three years later, the vast majority of Australians having a 50 megabit per second speed and it's found that more than 91 per cent of homes will have access to that.
    Here again, while a target of faster speeds by 2016 has not been met for the reasons stated, in the following three years a much more ambitious target will actually be met for 91% of homes, so there is a mix of news here, some of it seemingly good news.

    Fact is that the cost over-runs in the early stages can be accommodated within the total budget by altering the specification for the way work will proceed from here. In the end, Australians will have the benefit of greatly enhanced speeds. That sounds more like a potential success for the project and not like a total failure, in the way you are apparently arguing.

    You suffer two handicaps. One is the idiotic belief that complex projects can be expected to run like trains on a track without hitting challenges and requiring changes over the life of the project. Problems are normal in every project and certainly in every IT related project.

    Your second handicap seems to be poor comprehension of what is indeed a complex piece of writing. Too difficult for a fifth grade reader I fear.
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 May '14 17:51 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by techsouth
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/14/obamacare-contractor-pays-employees-to-do-nothing-whistleblower-says/?intcmp=HPBucket

    I wonder if this increases or decreases our average health care bill.
    If true that is one atrocious contract. I have worked on procurement for years and there is just no good reason to write blank cheques in this way.

    Serco certainly does take a lot of money from governments that are determined to employ the private sector to do work that is better suited to the public sector. We are told the private sector is more efficient and that the profit motive drives improvements and customer care. This is ideological claptrap of course. The profit motive drives greed and destroys public service ethics.

    Best way to think of a private sector company providing services to the public is this - they are thieves. So when people advocate handing public services to the private sector that is what they need to be reminded of.