Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    11 Jun '18 16:261 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64

    Why does (apart from appealing to the usual racism here) Blood on the Track single out Chinese athletes?

    (I have noticed ample overt anti-Asian or anti-Chinese racism in the Sports forum.)
    I *singled out* Chinese athletes because I joined this discussion when the previous post (yours) was almost totally discussing Chinese athletes.

    I have challenged your exaggerated claims about Chinese sport in general at times on the sports forum.

    For example, snooker , a sport that you seem to know very little about. You claimed China had several top class snooker players. I am still waiting for a name to join Ding Junhui . That was over a year ago.
  2. Zugzwang
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    12 Jun '18 02:281 edit
    Originally posted by @mchill
    America is a wonderful country in many ways, as a business owner, I'm thankful to live in a place where free market enterprises are encouraged. American's however, are hurting themselves in many ways in thinking if you don't finish # 1, you've failed. This stands in stark contrast to thinking in other parts of the world.

    In a former NY Times bestseller a ...[text shortened]... icle on this very subject.

    https://hbr.org/2012/08/our-unhealthy-obsession-with-winning.html
    Hou Yifan's the highest rated (by far) woman chess player in the world.
    She has the potential to surpass Judit Polgar as the highest rated woman chess player in history.
    But Hou Yifan never has been as single-minded as Judit Polgar was about chess.
    Many strong GMs have said that it's remarkable that Hou Yifan has achieved as much
    as she has in chess in view of her comparative lack of training and preparation.

    In contrast to Judit Polgar (who was trained since early childhood to become a chess
    professional and did not attend regular schools or university), Hou Yifan's not even a
    full time player, having divided her time between her university studies and chess.
    Now, as she's about to begin studying as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, Hou Yifan's
    apparently ready to stop playing serious chess for years to come.

    The case of Hou Yifan should put to an end to myths such as
    1) China's government controls its chess players' lives. In fact, they are independent professionals.
    2) China's government has or would order its best woman player to focus on chess above all.

    It's her life. A FM friend of mine said, however, that it's a pity that Hou Yifan's lack of dedication
    to chess means that we shall never know how far she could have gone and how strong
    women could become in chess. At best, she will have 'wasted' many years of her chess prime.
  3. Zugzwang
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    12 Jun '18 02:424 edits
    Originally posted by @blood-on-the-tracks
    I *singled out* Chinese athletes because I joined this discussion when the previous post (yours) was almost totally discussing Chinese athletes.

    I have challenged your exaggerated claims about Chinese sport in general at times on the sports forum.

    For example, snooker , a sport that you seem to know very little about. You claimed China ha ...[text shortened]... nooker players. I am still waiting for a name to join Ding Junhui . That was over a year ago.
    When I write about Chinese athletes, it's usually because they are being unfairly singled
    out for put-downs by Westerners who are extremely ignorant of conditions in China.

    As I already pointed out, Chinese culture has a traditional bias against sports and most
    Chinese people hardly care about athletic success. Hardly any Chinese parents would
    prefer that their children excel in athletics rather than academics. So Chinese people
    tend to lack any interest in boasting about or exaggerating Chinese success in sports.
    Many Chinese people do take exception, however, to racism putting down all Chinese.
    And that kind of racism seems popular and almost never criticized (except by me) at RHP.

    In the Sports forum, there seem to be at least several (apparently mostly British) racist writers
    who believe that the Chinese are 'racially inferior' in athletics to white and black people.
    So it's practically impossible that any Chinese could defeat a top white or black athlete
    without cheating or having unfair advantages. These racist writers love to reinforce one
    another in writing sneering put-downs of all Chinese as far inferior to white or black athletes.
    Although he may deny it now, Blood on the Tracks's sympathy seems with that racist camp.
  4. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    12 Jun '18 02:46
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Blood on the Tracks spews more falsehoods.

    As I already pointed out, Chinese culture has a traditional bias against sports and most
    Chinese people hardly care about athletic success. Hardly any Chinese parents would
    prefer that their children excel in athletics rather than academics. So Chinese people
    tend to lack any interest in boasting about ...[text shortened]... hletes.
    Although he may deny it now, Blood on the Tracks's sympathy seems to be with that camp.
    But your claims of Chinese "traditional" cultural bias against sports, Chinese apathy toward athletic success, as well as your claims of British racists in the sports forum give absolutely zero support for your charge that Blood on the Tracks is lying.
  5. Zugzwang
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    12 Jun '18 03:25
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    But your claims of Chinese "traditional" cultural bias against sports, Chinese apathy toward athletic success, as well as your claims of British racists in the sports forum give absolutely zero support for your charge that Blood on the Tracks is lying.
    Blood on the Tracks has a long record of abusive dishonest trolling of me in several forums.
    I expect the lying racist troll Tom Wolsey, of course, to admire and completely support that.
    But I did not want to make Blood on the Tracks's trolling record the main point of my post.
    That's why I edited out that statement, but Tom Wolsey takes up the cudgels for Blood on the Tracks.

    "...your exaggerated claims about Chinese sport in general..."
    --Blood on the Tracks

    I have made no 'exaggerated claims about Chinese sport *in general*'.
    I never have written, for instance, that I expect Chinese athletes to dominate the Olympics
    (though it's not impossible that China could win the most medals at a Summer Olympics someday).
    I never have written that I expect Chinese players to dominate snooker (which I don't play).
    Blood on the Tracks has a long record of dishonestly distorting what I write to attack 'strawmen'

    Not to 'beat around the bush', there's a popular racist belief here that all Chinese
    athletes are very 'racially inferior' to white and black athletes, so it's impracticable for any
    Chinese athlete to defeat any top white or black athlete without cheating or having unfair advantages.
    At least several writers take great delight in writing sneering put-downs (with thinly veiled racism)
    of all Chinese athletes. I may be the only person at RHP who perceives anything wrong with that.
  6. Zugzwang
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    12 Jun '18 03:28
    Originally posted by @whodey to Tom Wolsey
    Europeans are still upset over the US saving them in 2 world wars cuz they just can't stand to lose.
    Europeans regard the USA as very late arrivals to the party who then proceed to take credit for the whole thing.
    The USA's casualties were minor compared to their European allies in both world wars.
  7. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    12 Jun '18 04:20
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Blood on the Tracks has a long record of abusive dishonest trolling of me in several forums.
    I expect the lying racist troll Tom Wolsey, of course, to admire and completely support that.
    But I did not want to make Blood on the Tracks's trolling record the main point of my post.
    That's why I edited out that statement, but Tom Wolsey takes up the cudgels ...[text shortened]... f all Chinese athletes. I may be the only person at RHP who perceives anything wrong with that.
    And again, a lengthy diatribe loaded with ad hom and innuendo, but absolutely zero about Blood on the Tracks' charge involving Chinese performance enhancement in the Olympics.

    [hug]
  8. Joined
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    12 Jun '18 07:012 edits
    Everyone who disagrees is a 'troll'. Simply entering the discussion with a different view to D64 becomes a troll

    As for spewing falsehoods, D64 forgets that she/he specifically stated that China has *several top class snooker players*.

    When challenged to name them, no reply there came. And that was over a year ago.

    Was that the spewing of a falsehood?

    It is a fact that Chinese performance in the Olympics of the 80s and 90 s was very much enhanced by banned substances. Especially women's distance runners. Simply pointing that out in a discussion on Chinese athletes is not being racist. It is stating a fact.
  9. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    12 Jun '18 07:38
    "I expect the lying racist troll Tom Wolsey, of course, to admire and completely support that."

    This was a direct Duchess64 response to a post by TW. Her detached style comes off like the serial killer from "Silence of the Lambs".

    "It rubs the lotion lotion on it's skin."

    The chick is flat-out weird.
  10. Zugzwang
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    12 Jun '18 07:523 edits
    Originally posted by @blood-on-the-tracks
    Everyone who disagrees is a 'troll'. Simply entering the discussion with a different view to D64 becomes a troll

    As for spewing falsehoods, D64 forgets that she/he specifically stated that China has *several top class snooker players*.

    When challenged to name them, no reply there came. And that was over a year ago.

    Was that the spewing ...[text shortened]... pointing that out in a discussion on Chinese athletes is not being racist. It is stating a fact.
    "It is a fact that Chinese performance in the Olympics of the 80s and 90 s was
    *very much enhanced* by banned substances."
    --Blood on the Tracks

    FALSE. It's NOT a fact. It's an obstinate prejudice held by racists (such as Blood on the Tracks).
    There's no proof that more than a small minority of Chinese athletes who won medals
    at Olympics 1984-1999 used PEDs.

    I do NOT dispute that, in some, though not all, sports there was considerable usage of PEDs
    during that period in China, as there was in many other countries, including the USA.
    But one should not extrapolate PED usage in swimming to all or even most other sports.
    And it's possible that some Chinese who used PEDs did not get caught by drug tests.
    That would be true as well for many non-Chinese who used PEDs at that time.

    The Chinese deserve to be treated according to the same standards as other athletes.
    When Chinese athletes pass their drug tests, they deserve to be presumed innocent.
    If Florence Griffith-Joyner (FloJo) had been Chinese and made the same unprecedented
    improvement at a late age for a sprinter, then she would be about universally condemned for cheating.
    Instead, Americans love to celebrate her as the greatest woman sprinter (by far) of all time.
    (Some other top American women sprinters were convinced at that time that she was cheating.)

    Given that China has about 1.4 billion people, why is Blood on the Tracks apparently
    certain that none of them could have the potential to run or swim fast or jump far or high
    without using PEDs to cheat? Because all Chinese are 'racially inferior'?

    The only world record still held in distance running by a Chinese woman is at 3000 metres,
    and that's because that race's now rarely run, having been replaced by the 5000 metres.
    There was a hypothesis that it would be impossible for any non-cheating woman ever to
    break the allegedly PED-enhanced world records of Qu Yinxua at 1500 metres and
    Wang Junxia at 10000 metres, but these records have been broken by black African women.
    Must these (not 'racially inferior' ) black African women have used PEDs to run even faster?

    The only way that Chinese can convince racists that they are not cheating is to lose all the time.
  11. Zugzwang
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    12 Jun '18 07:57
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    "I expect the lying racist troll Tom Wolsey, of course, to admire and completely support that."

    This was a direct Duchess64 response to a post by TW. Her detached style comes off like the serial killer from "Silence of the Lambs".

    "It rubs the lotion lotion on it's skin."

    The chick is flat-out weird.
    It's completely reasonable for me to expect someone (Tom Wolsey) who already has a
    record of expressing racism in many threads to continue his racism in other contexts.

    Of course, Wolfe63 may prefer to turn his blind eye toward Tom Wolsey's racism.
    Most white Americans like to perform this ritual in which they attempt to minimize or excuse
    the racism of most other white Americans (perhaps except those in KKK robes) and their own.
  12. Joined
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    12 Jun '18 09:392 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    [b]"It is a fact that Chinese performance in the Olympics of the 80s and 90 s was
    *very much enhanced* by banned substances."
    --Blood on the Tracks

    FALSE. It's NOT a fact. It's an obstinate prejudice held by racists (such as Blood on the Tracks).
    There's no proof that more than a small minority of Chinese athletes who won medals
    at Olympics 1984- ...[text shortened]... t, in some, though not all, sports there was considerable usage of PEDs
    during that period in China
    Your quoted post by me says *It is a fact that Chinese performance in the Olympics of the 80s and 90s were very much enhanced by banned substances"

    You then, in my quoting of you above go onto agree with me!

    Just for the record, and in support of woefully ignorant reading comprehensionists everywhere, I did not say ALL Chinese athletes cheated.

    Thus, you agree that their performance WAS enhanced by cheats. Thanks

    Ps still waiting on names of these snooker players. I will keep asking
  13. Joined
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    12 Jun '18 09:402 edits
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Europeans are still upset over the US saving them in 2 world wars cuz they just can't stand to lose.
    It's well known that the Third Reich died in the eastern front, and the Soviet Union did most of the work when it came to destroying the Nazi regime.

    That being said, the original allied powers (Britain, China and France) were at war with at least one of the Axis powers for nearly two years before Germany declared war on the USSR and for over two years before Germany declared war on the United States. Germany declared war on the United States, not the other way around and it's unclear whether the USA would have ever joined the war had Hitler not been overconfident of Japan's ability to defeat the USA and declared war on them in a fit of excitement. Hitler was by no means forced to declare war on the USA to honour his alliance with Japan (after all, Japan had not declared war on the USSR as a symbol of their friendship).

    After France fell in the first half of 1940, Britain was able to hold out alone against the Axis (Germany and Italy), their fellow members of the tripartite pact (Hungary and Romania), their co-belligerents (Finland) and their puppets in the European theatre so that it became clear to Hitler that he would be unable to conquer the home islands and thus he proceeded with operation Barbarossa. In the Asian theatre, China held out alone against Japan. These nations were not going to be conquered anytime soon when the USA joined the war in December 1941.

    Once it became clear to the Reich that it had lost the war, they focussed mostly on the Eastern front (so that as much territory could be conquered by Britain and the United States as possible as Germany felt they would treat them better than the USSR). The fact that the USSR took by far the most land and killed the most German soldiers is a testament to the fact that they made by far the biggest contribution to defeating Nazism.

    The U.S helped the allied effort, of course. Their contribution certainly shortened the war, but they certainly weren't the main contributor or saviour. The U.S.A and China defeated Japan, but most U.S troops died in the European theater, and seeing as you are talking about the bitterness of Europeans we will stick to that.

    Just as a side note, there is no "European" perspective on WW2. Europe is a very diverse continent and many countries were on opposing sides of the war. Europe is not a single entity as many Americans seem to imagine it in their heads.
  14. Joined
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    12 Jun '18 09:582 edits
    In the 1940 U.S election, both Wendell Wilkie (Republican) and FDR (Democrat) based a large portion of their campaigns around promising Americans that they would not get involved in the war. Given this, it's unclear whether they would have joined if a) Japan had not attacked them, forcing FDR and Churchill to declare war on Japan, or b) Germany had not declared war on them after Pearl Harbour. When Churchill asked FDR to join the war before Pearl Harbour, FDR flatly refused (and between him and Wilkie, he was more pro-war). It's unclear how many lives this delay costed, especially those in the concentration camps.

    The USA was a reluctant participant at best. Whether they would have joined had Japan not attacked them or Germany not declared war on them is up for debate.
  15. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    12 Jun '18 14:03
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    In the 1940 U.S election, both Wendell Wilkie (Republican) and FDR (Democrat) based a large portion of their campaigns around promising Americans that they would not get involved in the war. Given this, it's unclear whether they would have joined if a) Japan had not attacked them, forcing FDR and Churchill to declare war on Japan, or b) Germany had not de ...[text shortened]... ld have joined had Japan not attacked them or Germany not declared war on them is up for debate.
    Complete rubbish. Nice try at re-writing American history. Your understanding of the facts and the motives behind the war are poorly constructed suppositions.

    I would suggest that you read just one of Sir Winston Churchill's six volumes on "the Second World War" published in 1951.

    But...I realize any facts that contradict your comfortable rationalizations will be thoughtlessly rejected.
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