Originally posted by Brother EdwinWell, that was a popular opinion among scientists back then.
Everything is a atom. Therefore everything is a resulrt of a previous reaction, this nothing is random and everything in theory ciould be predicted.
However, modern science disagrees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic#Arguments_against_determinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
Originally posted by scottishinnzYes. I always thought of this as, if true randomness exists at the atomic level, due to Heisenberg, etc., then we have a shot at having free will due to molecules bouncing around our brains in unpredictable ways. Otherwise, we are deterministic.
I don't think it's that simple. Enzyme kinetics, for example, depends upon substrates hitting the enzyme in the correct orientation and having the correct energy. Obviously for any given substrate molecule there is only a fractal possibility that the substrate will fulfil those constraints.
Now, if we had perfect knowledge about all the conditions ...[text shortened]... but probability and statistical theory allow us to make good predictions of what will happen.
Originally posted by Brother EdwinProbability and randomness are like God -- they are useful concepts that describe something that we experience. Saying they don't exist means you should replace them with something we understand better.
Everything is a atom. Therefore everything is a resulrt of a previous reaction, this nothing is random and everything in theory ciould be predicted.
I don't know of anything better at this point.
Originally posted by spruce112358Well, the free-will one is a difficult one. Of course, the brain operates the way it does based upon the exceptionally complicated interactions between neurons. Of course, some connections and pathways are more likely to form and last than others, but there must some amount of stochasticity in the system. No system is bug-proof, and it's possible that the brain, and perhaps some other biological systems evolved to allow (or perhaps just not disallow) this stochasticity to some extent. The ability to have new ideas must have some evolutionary benefit, you might think!
Yes. I always thought of this as, if true randomness exists at the atomic level, due to Heisenberg, etc., then we have a shot at having free will due to molecules bouncing around our brains in unpredictable ways. Otherwise, we are deterministic.
Hmm, interesting thoughts.... I need to think more about this, but I'm interested in hearing what you think.
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Originally posted by Sam The ShamWhat could've depressed her;
OK then explain women to us please
What could've possessed her?
I cannot understand the wretch at all.
Women are irrational, that's all there is to that!
Their heads are full of cotton, hay, and rags!
They're nothing but exasperating, irritating,
vacillating, calculating, agitating,
Maddening and infuriating hags!
-Henry Higgins
As much as I don't understand it and as much as it really irks me at some level, Quantum Mechanics does seem to indicate that there is true randomness in the universe. Meaning the universe is, as far as we can tell, non-deterministic at *a quantum level* no matter how much information and computing power you have access to.
The more interesting question, which was mentioned above is, in effect does it matter? Even if there is such a thing as true randomness, how does that play into the idea of free will? What the heck is free will anyway?
Personally, I believe free will is an illusion. Either we're following a lock-step set of deterministic effects at the non-quantum level or we're at the mercy of quantum randomness and are, effectively, random ourselves. Either way, I don't see what free will would be except, at best, the logical outcome of a set of malleable rules in the wetware of our brain. Stimulus goes in the form of sight/sound/etc and motor activity comes out. What happens in between is complex beyond our conception but is either deterministic or completely random. It's the fact that the operation of our brains is beyond our capacity for understanding that we have the illusion of free will. It's just something we came up with to cover the blank spot in the big I/O loop that is our central nervous system. Sort of like the way we invited Thor or Zeus to cover our lack of understanding of electrical storms.
That's my take on it at least. I'd be interested to hear everyone else's view on it. I'll point out that I'm an Agnostic Atheist, so my world view fails to take into account the concept of spirit/soul etc.
Originally posted by Ichibanov"God" gave "Man" free will, so Man could surprise Him by doing whatever we want, or so the story goes.
As much as I don't understand it and as much as it really irks me at some level, Quantum Mechanics does seem to indicate that there is true randomness in the universe. Meaning the universe is, as far as we can tell, non-deterministic at *a quantum level* no matter how much information and computing power you have access to.
The more interesting question ...[text shortened]... Atheist, so my world view fails to take into account the concept of spirit/soul etc.
But scientists wonder if that is really possible? From someone's genetics and upbringing, if we knew everything that shaped him or her over the years, and we knew everything about his current situation and experience -- could we predict with 100% accuracy what he would do? If so, perhaps scientists have caught God in a lie -- someone who is utterly predictable doesn't appear to have Free Will.
Then you can say, "Ah-ha, but whatever you predict, I will do the opposite." And the scientists say, "Yes, given your genes and upbringing, that is what we predicted you would do." And so on.
In the end, given enough information, it looks like the scientists win -- we are utterly predictable and so we couldn't have free will.
UNLESS, way down deep at the quantum level, there lies something that cannot be predicted. That somewhere in our brains, molecular collisions happen in a certain way or with a certain frequency that no amount of measurement will discern except to some degree of probability: "well, it is 70% likely that Joe Dokes will do X..."
And in that doubt, lies the Free Will of Mankind. Our fundamental right to surprise ourselves.
Originally posted by IchibanovIn my mind, it is the mark of both humility and intelligence to distinguish well between what we know and what we don't know. Determinism is an interesting hypothesis for discussion whether we are close to proving it or not. Although I have to agree that at this point my guess would be non-deterministic. Even those on the forefront of physics I'm not sure I'm convinced that even they could know for sure one way or the other. The fact that we are nowhere close to proving determinsim doesn't at all detract from its interestingness.
As much as I don't understand it and as much as it really irks me at some level, Quantum Mechanics does seem to indicate that there is true randomness in the universe. Meaning the universe is, as far as we can tell, non-deterministic at *a quantum level* no matter how much information and computing power you have access to.
The more interesting question ...[text shortened]... Atheist, so my world view fails to take into account the concept of spirit/soul etc.
Also, determinism or not, I am quite certain we'll never be able to predict the outcome of even a simple coin toss.
If you believe in free-will, you almost have to believe in God. I believe in both, but by no means plan to make a case here. If you do believe in God, it seems rather trivial for him to allow free will regardless of whether or not physics in general is deterministic or not. If you don't believe in God, I don't see how you could believe in free will. Neither determinsim nor non-determinism construct free will. This of course is exactly what you are contending.
Originally posted by techsouthBelieving in God may well imply believing in free will, but I don't see that the converse is true at all. Unless you're using a particularly wide definition of God. Just to take one part of the argument - how does belief in free-will require belief in a single creator?
If you believe in free-will, you almost have to believe in God. I believe in both, but by no means plan to make a case here. If you do believe in God, it seems rather trivial for him to allow free will regardless of whether or not physics in general is deterministic or not. If you don't believe in God, I don't see how you could believe in free will. Ne ...[text shortened]... m nor non-determinism construct free will. This of course is exactly what you are contending.
Myself, I think I'll go along with Steven Hawking. "Free will is a good approximation of how the brain works".
Originally posted by techsouthAm I free to do what I want, or has what I will do already been written -- I will do it whether I want to or not!
In my mind, it is the mark of both humility and intelligence to distinguish well between what we know and what we don't know. Determinism is an interesting hypothesis for discussion whether we are close to proving it or not. Although I have to agree that at this point my guess would be non-deterministic. Even those on the forefront of physics I'm not su ...[text shortened]... non-determinism construct free will. This of course is exactly what you are contending.
If I have free will, then I can choose whether or not to have seconds on dessert. It's all up to me.
If I do not have free will but only the illusion of it, then someone with perfect knowledge knows what I will do. And me knowing that they know will not alter the accuracy of their prediction.
Even if non-determinism does not grant free will, at least I think determinism and free will are incompatible.