Prove it!

The post that was quoted here has been removed

I am not a moderator but i am think that this might be considered inappropriate.

Originally posted by poundlee
I am not a moderator but i am think that this might be considered inappropriate.

Is it not an appropriate response to the question?

Originally posted by shavixmir
Is it not an appropriate response to the question?

In my humble opinion, it will probably not be deemed an appropriate response to the question but I am curious to hear what other have to say.

Originally posted by poundlee
In my humble opinion, it will probably not be deemed an appropriate response to the question but I am curious to hear what other have to say.

I think it is a perfect response to a completely pointless thread.

Originally posted by howardgee
I think it is a perfect response to a completely pointless thread.

Oh, there's a point. Perhaps asking to prove you were born was taken as an insult. It honestly wasn't meant to be. Just prove it.

Originally posted by dizzyfingers
please prove to me that you were born.

Strictly speaking - it's impossible to prove such a thing.
Though, it is a good hypothesis.

Originally posted by dizzyfingers
I enjoy these forums overall. But there are times when some folks start debating you who aren't actually engaging their intellects, just having conditioned reflexes. It really is something to behold.
My attempt here may be in vain, but I hope to demonstrate something. One of you who have engaged me in other threads - please prove to me that you were born.

Hmmm, can I be bothered to go to the intellectual length to work out how I'd prove it to you?

Nah, personal insults based on your previous opinions are much easier😀

Originally posted by mrstabby
Hmmm, can I be bothered to go to the intellectual length to work out how I'd prove it to you?

Nah, personal insults based on your previous opinions are much easier😀

Yeah, you're right! Thinking is hard, but insults are easy! Thanks for helping to reinforce the point I'm making!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Strictly speaking - it's impossible to prove such a thing.
Though, it is a good hypothesis.

That was a thoughtful response. We could use a few more of those around here. Let's see what we get.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Strictly speaking - it's impossible to prove such a thing.
Though, it is a good hypothesis.

Strictly speaking, can one person prove something to another person?

Originally posted by dizzyfingers
One of you who have engaged me in other threads - please prove to me that you were born.

Sorry, I'm not in the Spirit forum much so I don't think I've talked to you, but allow me to lay out the start of an answer to your challenge. Notice I said "start of an answer" and it would be the same if you had said "prove to me algebra works" or "prove to me the Alamo exists". The general question of how do we know what we know is not a trivial one for scientists or Doctors of Thinkology. People much smarter and wiser than me have spent lifetimes working on that question.

It starts on the back of mathematics where we use axioms of relationships and operations (man-made) to establish the other branches of math that allow us to do the rest of the sciences. It's a firm foundation that has been repeatedly tested and has produced fantastic results from putting a man on the moon to predicting with startling accuracy the next lunar eclipse. From there science has established rules of logic and evidence that they use to describe the world and how it works and again these have been wildly successful right up to this moment as I use my electric pencil to write these words.

Well, I'm certainly long winded, aren't I? Does this get us any closer to what you ask for? Yes. The rules of evidence that science has established would work for the question of my birth. Two major rules:

1) Natural explanations only. Science doesn't know how to test "God did it" or an explanation where in this one case or another the regular workings of physics/astronomy/biology for some reason didn't apply.

2) Evidence you present must be testable by anybody...anywhere...anytime. No special pleadings that you know ghosts exist (for example) because you saw one, yet you have nothing else to offer.

Someone once explained that lines of evidence come together in the same way radios can triangulate to find the source of a transmission. You lay down one line of evidence, then another. They cross at some point "x". You add another line of evidence (perhaps from a far-flung field from the other two) and it crosses at "x" too. The more times these lines cross at "x", the more confident we are that (dare I say it?) "x" marks the spot. People in different lands and working in different languages lay down these lines of evidence and yes, it works for them too. We become more sure that "x" is marking something that is real.

And finally (pant,pant) to my birth. Let me lay down some lines of evidence and see what they point towards. The one axiom I work from is: if I exist, then I was born. If you dispute that, then present your proof that I was created or magicly appeared by some other means.

1. Official records. There is paperwork at the city, county, and state level that show the birth of one person (me) and agree in the details..time, place, etc. There are secondary records at the hospital and doctor's office that confirm the government ones.

2. Physical evidence. There are thumbprints and feet prints entered at multiple places in the record that point to someone being born. Compare them to my current thumbprint and notice the match. The records show a certain blood type...compare that to my current blood type and notice the match. As an aside let me give an example of how science marches on. If some skin or a nail clipping had been saved from the day I was born, then DNA evidence from my current skin or nail would also match even tho the technology didn't exist 55 years ago.

3. Chain of proof of existance. there is a line of pieces of evidence from my earliest years (pictures..personal testimony...school records) to today (current driver's license...maxed out Visa card) that demonstrate and document the life of one person, me. And those records form a logical pattern of a human being born and growing up and is similar to the pattern we have observed in millions of other human beings.

4. Consistancy. There are hundreds of individual bits of evidence (Social Security card, military records, marriage license, rental agreements, job records...) that match up with and are consistant with personal testimony of individuals ("yeah, I knew Steve when he was in the Air Force..got married..live in that apartment.."😉 and are consistant among themselves. For example, someone with my fingerprints served at Travis AFB, had a California driver's license #xxxxxxxxx, was married to this woman, and they lived at this address. And again all of this fits into a logical and common pattern that we have seen millions of times.

And in a large nutshell, that is how it works. Evidence is presented and tested. Patterns of evidence form. We can draw conclusions from those patterns. We search for more evidence as new tools are invented. As these evidences and patterns pile up we grow more confident that we are seeing what is real.

Now put yourself in the jury box. My lawyer shows you all the records and paperwork that I have talked about and a hundred more. He brings in a hundred witnesses. The paperwork, physical evidence, and testimony form a consistant and logical pattern that I existed. Would you agree? And if you agree would you also agree that I was born?

Best
Steve (or is it?)

Originally posted by dizzyfingers
I please prove to me that you were born.

Yawn.

Such an obvious paradox results in any attempt to answser this question in the affirmative.

The solution to the paradox, of course, is that the question is framed incorrectly.

you might as well ask someone to prove that they weren't boirn. Their answers will just be the mirror opposite of the "proove you were born" answers.

Really, do we need to go down this well worn path of logistic inference just to find out there is no satisfactory answer to the stated question???