Originally posted by quackquackI hope you do realize that worker benefits are a joke in the US. I don't know how you guys put up with bosses who demand 50 weeks of work a year.
Your amazingly biased pro-union views are on display again. Take automobiles and airlines to see how unions cause low quality work and over payment of workers. See how even with the benefit of being an oligopoly that industries can't make profit despite government assistence. Unions are no more natural than corporations and certainly no more benefitic ...[text shortened]... o keep up their lifestyle, some givebacks of the last thirty years is a logical starting point.
Originally posted by quackquackYou are utterly ignorant and a bit insane. Worker wages and benefits in the last 30 years have stagnated or declined while productivity has almost doubled. To insist that workers suffer more so your Randian God Men get even more is ridiculous.
Your amazingly biased pro-union views are on display again. Take automobiles and airlines to see how unions cause low quality work and over payment of workers. See how even with the benefit of being an oligopoly that industries can't make profit despite government assistence. Unions are no more natural than corporations and certainly no more benefitic ...[text shortened]... o keep up their lifestyle, some givebacks of the last thirty years is a logical starting point.
American workers are among the most productive in the world and our hours worked among the highest. That some of our products are noncompetitive in this world economy is generally because workers in repressive countries can be forced to toil for far less pay.
The idea of a corporation is 100% artificial; it is based on limited liability of shareholders a completely legalistic concept. Unions, by contrast, are associations of individuals having common interests: a most basic and natural idea. There is no comparison between what "rights" a corporation should have and what rights unions have (the union is merely the collective voice of the individual members).
Originally posted by no1marauderBenefits have skyrocketed recently and unions get benefits others can't. Workers have taken more and more comensation indirectly and with vactaion rights, retirements etc. Healthcare goes up double digits every year. To say you don't get a huge raise when you have benefits like healthcare is being completely diseigenious. Teachers (I used to work for NYC) still have an option of getting fixed 7-8% in their tax deferred annuity and have health insurance for life.
You are utterly ignorant and a bit insane. Worker wages and benefits in the last 30 years have stagnated or declined while productivity has almost doubled. To insist that workers suffer more so your Randian God Men get even more is ridiculous.
American workers are among the most productive in the world and our hours worked among the h ...[text shortened]... what rights unions have (the union is merely the collective voice of the individual members).
Furthermore as we live in a global economy we are no longer need to debate this issue. Simply, American workers cannot unionize and hold companies hostage by excessive demands. Companies have a fair remedy the opportunity to utilize those in other parts of the globe who will not demand 35 hour work weeks or excessive vacation days, early retirement and excessive benefits. Some of these workers may actually even be better. If the free market lead to outsourcing than a neutral force -- the free market will decide that when workers are overpaid. If that does not work then you are right and workers demands will need to met or work will cease.
Unions aren't a natural idea. It is an artifical creation to exert power. You seem to like what they do and I certainly don't. But to give them rights and not corporations is simply unprincipled.
Originally posted by quackquack🙄🙄
Benefits have skyrocketed recently and unions get benefits others can't. Workers have taken more and more comensation indirectly and with vactaion rights, retirements etc. Healthcare goes up double digits every year. To say you don't get a huge raise when you have benefits like healthcare is being completely diseigenious. Teachers (I used to work for ...[text shortened]... and I certainly don't. But to give them rights and not corporations is simply unprincipled.
You offer no facts to support your Randian lunacy and there are none. Of course, people in unions are a bit better off than those not in unions; they have enhanced bargaining power (this partially compensates for the normal advantage the employer has due to the workers' immediate need being greater). But worker' wages and benefits have been stagnant for the last 30 years and more and more are going without basic benefits like health insurance and any kind of pension. Even someone as ignorant as you should be aware of those undeniable facts.
The "free market" is a myth as far as global labor is concerned. Workers get paid what they can force from the greedy hands of their capitalist masters. In many countries the government forcefully intervenes in favor of capital and that is why wages in such countries are low. The US should not allow ANY imports from such countries as we are contributing to repression by doing so.
I explained the difference between unions and corporations; treating a natural form of people's associations differently from a legalistic concept is hardly "unprincipled" but is surely keeping with the type of Natural Law philosophy this country was founded on.
FACT: The percentage of workers covered by a traditional defined benefit (DB) pension plan that pays a lifetime annuity, often based on years of service and final salary, has been steadily declining over the past 25 years. From 1980 through 2008, the proportion of private wage and salary workers participating in DB pension plans fell from 38 percent to 20 percent (Bureau of Labor Statistics 2008; Department of Labor 2002).
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n3/v69n3p1.html
FACT: The share of workers with health insurance fell from 93.5 percent in 1979 to 83.3 percent in
2008. If health-insurance rates in 2008 had remained at their 1979 levels, an additional 12.6
million workers would have had health insurance in 2008.
• The main reason for the decline in overall coverage rates was the steep drop in employerprovided
health insurance. Between 1979 and 2008, employment-based coverage (through a
worker’s own employer or through their spouse or other relative’s employer) decreased 12.4
percentage points.
• In 2008, coverage rates varied widely by wage level. For high-wage workers (the top fifth of
all wage earners), only about 4 percent had no health insurance. For low-wage workers (the
bottom fifth of all wage earners), about 37 percent had no coverage. For middle-wage
workers (the middle fifth of wage earners) about 12 percent lacked coverage.
•
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/hc-coverage-2010-03.pdf
So where are these "skyrocketing benefits" that workers in the US are getting through their "excessive demands" on capitalists, QQ? The fact is that wages have stagnated and the most common forms of benefits are less and less available to workers. And this in the face of increased productivity and longer working hours. Workers are getting a far worse deal than they did even a few decades ago though they apparently aren't being screwed enough according to your demented calculus.
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't have time to argue so I will simply outline this:
So where are these "skyrocketing benefits" that workers in the US are getting through their "excessive demands" on capitalists, QQ? The fact is that wages have stagnated and the most common forms of benefits are less and less available to workers. And this in the face of increased productivity and longer working hours. Workers are getting a far worse dea ...[text shortened]... ago though they apparently aren't being screwed enough according to your demented calculus.
(1) If workers were underpaid then you should have no fear of the free market and using foreign labor.
(2) If workers were underpaid unemployement would be very low as everyone would be fighting to get profitable workers.
The fact that we have high unemployment and jobs moving overseas shows that workers are not nearly as overproductive and underpaid as you believe. The reality is that benefits are skyrocking in cost and less often does it pay to provide lower productive workers with these benefits.
Originally posted by quackquackYou cannot have a healthy economy or a vibrant society by cutting worker wages or by having high levels of unemployment. The policies our nation have followed have managed to do both while immensely benefiting the wealthiest 1%. That is what OWS is all about.
I don't have time to argue so I will simply outline this:
(1) If workers were underpaid then you should have no fear of the free market and using foreign labor.
(2) If workers were underpaid unemployement would be very low as everyone would be fighting to get profitable workers.
The fact that we have high unemployment and jobs moving overseas sh ...[text shortened]... ing in cost and less often does it pay to provide lower productive workers with these benefits.
Originally posted by no1marauderYou cannot have a healthy economy when people are paid more than they produce, when every new policy we have we pay for by taxing only those that some deem to be rich, when half the country pays no income tax but whines that enough isn't done for them and when workers advocates constantly fight against free market solutions and the reality of economics.
You cannot have a healthy economy or a vibrant society by cutting worker wages or by having high levels of unemployment. The policies our nation have followed have managed to do both while immensely benefiting the wealthiest 1%. That is what OWS is all about.
It is hard to know what OWS is about because they refuse to articulate what they are and I doubt they have chosen you as their spokesman. But, I'd be more sympathetic if they actually went to work instead of camped out in parks.
Originally posted by quackquackThere are plenty of healthy economies where the rich pay way more taxes and people get much better benefits.
You cannot have a healthy economy when people are paid more than they produce, when every new policy we have we pay for by taxing only those that some deem to be rich, when half the country pays no income tax but whines that enough isn't done for them and when workers advocates constantly fight against free market solutions and the reality of economics. ...[text shortened]... n. But, I'd be more sympathetic if they actually went to work instead of camped out in parks.