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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    29 Jan '18 06:42
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42833132

    I’ve got a couple of vegan friends.
    And I have to admit: they really, really, really annoy me.

    Besides the fact that we are animals and that animals eat animals; so it’s natural…
    Besides the fact that if we stop eating “game” (venison, boar, etc.), the game will eat everyone’s vegetables they are growing and we’ll have to breed wolves to eat the “game”…
    Besides the fact that a vegan diet is unhealthy and they all have to vitamin supplements (especially B6 and B12)…

    Besides my serious solution to the problem: we eat vegans. That way the animals survive, we eat meat and we don’t have to listen to the vegans whine like pigs in slaughter houses… a win-win situation for all involved…

    Obviously I think animals should be treated properly and that we have to respect where the meat comes from.
    And it would be good to eat only free range and game meats.

    But… now the vegans are claiming that dairy farming is raping animals.
    Just so you know: cows are artificially impregnated so they start producing milk. And by milking them, they keep producing milk. However, when the milk supply naturally becomes less, they get impregnated again.

    Are we?

    This is a definition of rape:
    unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.

    Can the cow be seen as another person?
    Can the cow be seen to have not given consent?
    Do you reckon the cow would rather be eaten than impregnated?

    I’ve been to a natural farm where the cows walk into a special barn to get milked. They walk in by themselves. Okay, probably pressure on the teets makes them want to be relieved, but yet… it doesn’t seem very animal unfriendly to me.

    I’ve spoken with dairy farmers (I used to know quite a few of them) and they seemed very concerned about the animals welfare.


    So. A different subject than usual.
    I wonder what you all make of it.
  2. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    29 Jan '18 07:09
    Here’s an interesting link.

    https://www.dairyfarmers.ca/farmers-voice/farming/milk-myths-debunked-dairy-is-scary-or-not

    I’ve also herd (see the pun... see the pun...) vegans talk about the industry using rape racks.
    However, it’s a term vegans invented. The industry doesn’t use terms like that at all.
  3. 29 Jan '18 07:09
    I have a vegan friend who always sends me videos and links about veganism.

    I've openly told him that I think eating meat is a natural part of our omnivorous diet, being descended from primates and that woe betide anyone who tries to stop me from eating eggs.

    I do wish he would stop proselytizing.
  4. 29 Jan '18 11:13 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42833132

    I’ve got a couple of vegan friends.
    And I have to admit: they really, really, really annoy me.

    Besides the fact that we are animals and that animals eat animals; so it’s natural…
    Besides the fact that if we stop eating “game” (venison, boar, etc.), the game will eat everyone’s vegetables they are growing and w ...[text shortened]... e animals welfare.


    So. A different subject than usual.
    I wonder what you all make of it.
    For the last time Shav, if you want to shag a cow then that is up to you and the laws of the country in which you reside. If it is legal then "mooooooo"re power to ya!

    Personally I think you are insane, but you already knew that.
  5. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    29 Jan '18 11:49
    Originally posted by @whodey
    For the last time Shav, if you want to shag a cow then that is up to you and the laws of the country in which you reside. If it is legal then "mooooooo"re power to ya!

    Personally I think you are insane, but you already knew that.
    What, exactly, has that got to do with vegan claims about the dairy industry?

    Oh... you didn’t read the post.
    Aha. Don’t bloody post then.
  6. Subscriber kmax87
    Health and Education
    29 Jan '18 14:14 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    I have a vegan friend who always sends me videos and links about veganism.

    I've openly told him that I think eating meat is a natural part of our omnivorous diet, being descended from primates and that woe betide anyone who tries to stop me from eating eggs.

    I do wish he would stop proselytizing.
    I think in the long run veganism, or rather the unwillingness to adapt to it presents the biggest global issue on the horizon. It's one thing to talk about wealth inequality in the first world, but if you really want to talk about wealth inequality then compare first world to third world conditions and the comparison could not be any more stark. A big factor in the disparity is food inequality.

    Eating meat is ecologically unsustainable. It requires more land and water usage than a vegan lifestyle ever would. Compare the cost in terms of land area, soil enrichment and water usage to produce 1 kg of rice compared to 1 kg of steak, and you quickly work out that if the 3rd world adopted 1st world eating habits we will quickly run out of planet.

    Unfortunately that message sounds alarmist, so most people will ignore it, but it's like the pro life issue and the evangelicals who will support even someone like Trump, because he's willing to support their cause.

    Don't dismiss both issues because it seems to attract the lunatic fringe. Have a look at how it's gaining ground. Because of its low overall take-up, Veganism is enjoying a fantastic growth rate across the globe as we speak and while the pro life movement may not be making as spectacular gains, I really believe it was that one sleeper issue that finally nailed Hillary's coffin.

    The Podesta emails and the linking of Hillary to her hero Margaret Sanger who laid the foundations of Planned Parenthood, became a rallying cause on the alt right. A loose conspiracy of liberals re-enslaving Black's by promoting easy access abortions just had to be exposed and stopped according to the far right because it's these liberal policies that has contributed to a complete breakdown of the basis of society within the black communities, because that's what happens when you murder millions of unborn black children every year, according to every liberal democrat bashing voice in the US of A.

    Now I can hear you ask what has this to do with veganism? Well simply put, it's the arguments against abortion that have made the evangelicals and the pro life movement such an influential force in politics that people were willing to throw in their lot with Trump because he seemed keen to back their agenda. This is why they feel he can't be defeated, because in their view he is part of the resistance against godlessness. Making America Great Again is a crusade for Americans to turn back to their Christian roots, part of which is the pro life movement and the sanctity of life argument that the proponents feel is key to receiving God's blessings again.

    The thing is the pro life movement is all about turning abortion into a little chamber of horrors. The very same arguments which now are slowly insinuating and permeating their way into the promotion of veganism. It's not just about being better for your health, or better for the environment, but also better for your soul. The cost of a guilt free existence it seems rests with wrestling over the morality of the large scale slaughter of bio fuel units, raised without any concern for their health or wellbeing in some of the most dispicable displays of ruthless exploitation of one sentient species by another.
    The argument that seems to be taking hold is a karmic one. Can we as humans expect good things when we act that atrociously towards another species. Is the current social malaise and dysfunction that we see in much of the OECD symptomatic of the toxic way that we perform one of societies most basic functions. The cultivation and distribution of food?

    What does it all mean? Well there's a generation of Millennials out there who watched Babe when they were 5 and stopped eating bacon as a result. As veganism starts to go mainstream, the kids will follow.

    Cranking up my Crystal Ball I will confidently predict that within the next 15 years, apart from Global Warming and the electrification of transport as the Internal Combustion Engine gives way to EV, the Pro Life movement and Veganism will be the biggest drivers of change within society as we know it.
  7. 29 Jan '18 14:42
    - Eat meat on some days.
    - Don't eat meat on other days.



    Dear god! Once again, it seems that moderate behavior is the answer.

    Who coulda known?

    Is it rape? I guess so, if one equates animals to humans.

    Which one probably shouldn't do, unless one is a dumbass.
  8. 29 Jan '18 14:59
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    - Eat meat on some days.
    - Don't eat meat on other days.



    Dear god! Once again, it seems that moderate behavior is the answer.

    Who coulda known?

    Is it rape? I guess so, if one equates animals to humans.

    Which one probably shouldn't do, unless one is a dumbass.
    I bet Harvey Weinstein like him some cow!
  9. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    29 Jan '18 16:17
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    I think in the long run veganism, or rather the unwillingness to adapt to it presents the biggest global issue on the horizon. It's one thing to talk about wealth inequality in the first world, but if you really want to talk about wealth inequality then compare first world to third world conditions and the comparison could not be any more stark. A big factor ...[text shortened]... o Life movement and Veganism will be the biggest drivers of change within society as we know it.
    Good post.
    Disagree completely, but thoughtfully written.

    Veganism is healthy?
    Nothing except vitamin sales to back it up....
  10. 29 Jan '18 21:02
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I bet Harvey Weinstein like him some cow!
    Well. He was hanging out w/ Oprah for awhile. A fat black cow at that.
  11. Subscriber kmax87
    Health and Education
    31 Jan '18 15:23
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Good post.
    Disagree completely, but thoughtfully written.

    Veganism is healthy?
    Nothing except vitamin sales to back it up....
    Cheers!

    Anyhow, I've got lots of friends in health science, one lectures undergraduate nurses, and the statistics and trends show that those that favor veganism/vegetarianism on balance have better long term health outcomes especially as they enter their 70's and 80's.

    We all have an uncle who lived to 90 that did not follow the "rules", but its the things you will be unable to do because of ill health as you get older, that make veganism a better choice. Plan to die healthy, where you were able to do anything you wanted to do up until your last breath, instead of the slow decline modern diets lead us into, where incrementally you end up developing a plethora of debilitating chronic illnesses. One thing is for sure. You don't readily find fat or overweight and definitely not morbidly obese vegans, and a healthy weight is a fairly good predictor of the quality of life you will have in the last 20 or so years you enjoy on the planet. Maintaining your lightest weight into retirement is probably the best defense against the conditions of old age.

    As to whether you take a B12 supplement, if that's the adjustment you have to make, compare that to a typical elderly persons Monday to Sunday pill box, full of diabetic pills, blood pressure pills....pills for pills, you name it.

    You could easily be taking 3 to 10 pills a day by the time you're 75.

    And that's the thing. Its insurance towards an optimal quality of life into your golden years. Can you still be hit by a bus, of course. Can a high stress job still age you prematurely and kill you, assuredly. Other than that, you pays your price and you takes your choice!
  12. Subscriber KingDavid403
    King David
    31 Jan '18 15:29
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I bet Harvey Weinstein like him some cow!
    Don't forget your sexual predator and false god Dump also.
  13. 31 Jan '18 22:03
    Do cows consent to be milked?
  14. Subscriber kmax87
    Health and Education
    01 Feb '18 01:42
    Originally posted by @jacob-verville
    Do cows consent to be milked?
    Ah, the big questions. Like do sheep consent to be fleeced? Do lambs enjoy a good slaughter?
  15. 01 Feb '18 03:54
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Ah, the big questions. Like do sheep consent to be fleeced? Do lambs enjoy a good slaughter?
    Exactly.

    I think we have dominion over animals, but yeah, we really need to act like proper masters.

    Chattel slavery perhaps gave 'master' a particularly bad name.

    I am thinking of Masters more like how we should conceptualize the guiding, authorative force in the small community, or in the home.