Originally posted by stockenThe effects of full employment occur no matter what the system. After the Black Death in Europe, a labor shortage caused a rise in wages. Feudal baron were outraged at the effrontery of the peasants. but it wasn't the peasant's fault. No system can produce full employment without this effect.
K-ziing! 😉
Which is why capitalism can never guarantee everyone that horrible
combination of words I'm so sick of writing now, whereas socialism could.
Though, agreed, at what price indeed.
So the Paradise you are chasing is an illusory one, I am afraid.
The guiding principle behind socialism is that some people's freedom is sacrificed for the material gain of others. Whereas the guiding principle behind capitalism is that no one is sacrificed for anyone else -- each person controls his own resources and makes his own choices.
Therefore, unlike socialism, capitalism is inherently unbiased.
The reason people dislike capitalism is that they fear a just system -- the idea that most people should get what they deserve scares the sheet out of them. On the other hand, once you have tasted that freedom, most people have no interest in crawling back into the womb. Or, at least, it is an odd crew that do.
On the other hand, socialism is a demagogue that mumurs that everyone is equally worthy and has earned an equal share of the pie just by being born. Just being human, All merit the Good Life.
Socialism is for kids. Capitalism is for grown-ups.
Originally posted by spruce112358Well, capitalism does need to be restrained. Otherwise you get five year olds being sent down mine shafts too small for adults to pick out the gems twelve hours a day and seven days a week.
The effects of full employment occur no matter what the system. After the Black Death in Europe, a labor shortage caused a rise in wages. Feudal baron were outraged at the effrontery of the peasants. but it wasn't the peasant's fault. No system can produce full employment without this effect.
So the Paradise you are chasing is an illusory one, I am a ...[text shortened]... being human, All merit the Good Life.
Socialism is for kids. Capitalism is for grown-ups.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungDid. We are more grown-up than that now. If you still do, I claim you are not acting in a grown-up fashion and that your moral education has been arrested.
Yes, they do allow their kids to do that. Infamously they did it in the 18th century, inspiring the book Oliver Twist and they still do.
Originally posted by spruce112358You seriously believe no children are working any more? Come on.
Did. We are more grown-up than that now. If you still do, I claim you are not acting in a grown-up fashion and that your moral education has been arrested.
the United Farm Workers union estimates that at least 800,000 children work in the fields of the U.S. And when the urban sweatshops of the garment and other industries are accounted for, the total number of child laborers in the U.S. runs even higher.
http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/500Supp/500S_20000707_ChildLabor.shtml
It's possible that website is lying or mistaken, but I am sure there are documented cases of illegal child labor in the US even if this estimate is a lie.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungBut to your point about restraint -- it depends on what you mean.
Well, capitalism does need to be restrained. Otherwise you get five year olds being sent down mine shafts too small for adults to pick out the gems twelve hours a day and seven days a week.
Some would say, "just restrain capitalism until it becomes socialism. Then it's OK." Some would restrain it into communism.
Capitalism is an economic system that needs to exist alongside a legal system, a moral system, a cultural system, and lots of other systems in harmony. So yes, all the systems check and balance one another. No need to single capitalism out.
Originally posted by spruce112358Capitalism is not compatible with many laws. The point of capitalism is that there are few laws controlling it, no? The only laws capitalism is compatible with are those that enforce contracts and protect people from violence. Keeping people in wage slavery is part of the system, no?
But to your point about restraint -- it depends on what you mean.
Some would say, "just restrain capitalism until it becomes socialism. Then it's OK." Some would restrain it into communism.
Capitalism is an economic system that needs to exist alongside a legal system, a moral system, a cultural system, and lots of other systems in harmony. So yes, all the systems check and balance one another. No need to single capitalism out.
In the US we have a restrained form of capitalism, and it works pretty well.
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungI didn't say that. I said we don't need to install a socialist form of government because there is one child somewhere working on a farm.
You seriously believe no children are working any more? Come on.
the United Farm Workers union estimates that at least 800,000 children work in the fields of the U.S. And when the urban sweatshops of the garment and other industries are accounted for, the total number of child laborers in the U.S. runs even higher.
http://www.socialistworker. ...[text shortened]... there are documented cases of illegal child labor in the US even if this estimate is a lie.
Find the child, and punish the parents. There is nothing to do with capitalism.
Originally posted by spruce112358How about wage slavery? For example, having as part of a contract the requirement that the employees live in your overpriced housing and buying your overpriced food for months at a time. Nowadays I think this sort of thing is illegal, though I'm not sure.
I didn't say that. I said we don't need to install a socialist form of government because there is one child somewhere working on a farm.
Find the child, and punish the parents. There is nothing to do with capitalism.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThere is nothing less profitable in the long run than breaking the law. Companies go to great lengths to avoid doing that. Stupid companies do break the law -- and get broken up. It's just.
Capitalism is not compatible with many laws. The point of capitalism is that there are few laws controlling it, no? The only laws capitalism is compatible with are those that enforce contracts and protect people from violence. Keeping people in wage slavery is part of the system, no?
In the US we have a restrained form of capitalism, and it works pretty well.
Capitalists sometimes call for less law, sometimes more. They don't want "unrestraint" any more than the average guy on the street. Chaos is not good for business.
You are right about contracts and police -- that's what government should focus on.
What do you mean 'wage slavery' -- is someone forcing you to work for a given wage? You can't quit or find another job? I know maybe you don't want to, but that's different -- that's your choice.
Again, acting like a responsible adult instead of like a kid who blows his money on root beer and bubble gum is your first step to freedom.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYou've linked a capitalist to a non-capitalist idea. Why should I live in your overpriced housing? I should have the choice to spend my resources the way I want to. Competition for housing may drive prices up, but the market will rush to adjust. Maybe I will quit working for you and build houses.
How about wage slavery? For example, having as part of a contract the requirement that the employees live in your overpriced housing and buying your overpriced food for months at a time. Nowadays I think this sort of thing is illegal, though I'm not sure.
Originally posted by spruce112358Wage slavery takes place when demand for jobs is much higher than supply - in a recession or depression. People are desperate to get work and will do anything. They get locked into contracts by which they unwittingly (due to difficult language used in the contract) sell themselves into near slavery and from which they end up losing money in the process due to making themselves a captive market for the employer.
There is nothing less profitable in the long run than breaking the law. Companies go to great lengths to avoid doing that. Stupid companies do break the law -- and get broken up. It's just.
Capitalists sometimes call for less law, sometimes more. They don't want "unrestraint" any more than the average guy on the street. Chaos is not good for business ...[text shortened]... a kid who blows his money on root beer and bubble gum is your first step to freedom.
Of course breaking the law is unprofitable. That's why it's hard to be a capitalist in Communist countries.
I agree on your last line completely. Lack of personal discipline is what keeps most people down. I know I have that problem myself, but at least I recognize it and could probably overcome it if I need to.
I fear you do not have a clear understanding of capitalism. It cannot have anything to do with “wage slavery.”
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion. Capitalism is the system of of laissez faire. It is the system of political freedom.
I suggest you read: Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.