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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 Dec '16 14:39 / 2 edits
    Rather than tear out each other's throats on the other thread, I propose an exercise in critical thinking and policy analysis.

    Let's start with the following premise, whether you agree with it or disagree with it.

    Given: The UN General Assembly and Security Council should pass a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state.

    What borders should be recognized by the resolution, if any?

    What should the status of the Jews living inside of those borders be? Should they be allowed to retain Israeli citizenship? Should the be entitled to Palestinian citizenship?

    If the above does happen, is Israel now justified in completely sealing the borders between itself and Palestine for all those not holding Israeli citizenship?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 Dec '16 15:01
    Originally posted by sh76
    Rather than tear out each other's throats on the other thread, I propose an exercise in critical thinking and policy analysis.

    Let's start with the following premise, whether you agree with it or disagree with it.

    Given: The UN General Assembly and Security Council should pass a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state.

    What borders should be recogn ...[text shortened]... sealing the borders between itself and Palestine for all those not holding Israeli citizenship?
    Yes, given Israeli bad faith and intransigence since Oslo.

    The Green Line.

    That would be up to the People of the Palestinian State.

    Sure, Israel would be justified in doing that now. Control of your borders is the prerogative of a sovereign State.
  3. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    29 Dec '16 15:24
    Originally posted by sh76
    Rather than tear out each other's throats on the other thread, I propose an exercise in critical thinking and policy analysis.

    Let's start with the following premise, whether you agree with it or disagree with it.

    Given: The UN General Assembly and Security Council should pass a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state.

    What borders should be recogn ...[text shortened]... sealing the borders between itself and Palestine for all those not holding Israeli citizenship?
    There already is a Palestinian state: all of that area immediately outside and surrounding Israel.
  4. Subscriber mchill
    cryptogram
    29 Dec '16 19:59 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Yes, given Israeli bad faith and intransigence since Oslo.

    The Green Line.

    That would be up to the People of the Palestinian State.

    Sure, Israel would be justified in doing that now. Control of your borders is the prerogative of a sovereign State.
    I would agree with this. Given the leadership in Israel today however, the chances of this actually happening are about the same as discovering a large polished ruby in a pile of horse dung.
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 Dec '16 21:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Yes, given Israeli bad faith and intransigence since Oslo.

    The Green Line.

    That would be up to the People of the Palestinian State.

    Sure, Israel would be justified in doing that now. Control of your borders is the prerogative of a sovereign State.
    Including the Old City of Jerusalem?

    Would the Palestinian state really be justified in stripping citizenship of people living within their borders because they're Jews?

    Do you think it's realistic to expect almost 500,000 people to accept finding themselves now living in another country?

    Wouldn't that hurt the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who commute over the Green Line to jobs in Israel every day? What would forcing Israeli businesses out of the West Bank do to the economy of the WB? Would the Palestinians even want a state on the Green Line border overnight with no provisions for transitioning and preparing for the breaking of economic lines that would invariably occur?

    My point is: Isn't it better for all sides, even the Palestinians, for the borders to be part of a negotiated settlement rather than something forced by the UN?
  6. 29 Dec '16 21:15
    Originally posted by sh76 to No1Marauder
    Including the Old City of Jerusalem?

    Would the Palestinian state really be justified in stripping citizenship of people living within their borders because they're Jews?

    Do you think it's realistic to expect almost 500,000 people to accept finding themselves now living in another country?

    Wouldn't that hurt the hundreds of thousands of P ...[text shortened]... s, for the borders to be part of a negotiated settlement rather than something forced by the UN?
    It would be better for Israel to attempt to respect international law. That's why Israel's
    apologists object so much to having Israel held to account in an international court.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 Dec '16 21:18
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    It would be better for Israel to attempt to respect international law. That's why Israel's
    apologists object so much to having Israel held to account in an international court.
    Israel's apologists object so much to having Israel held to account in an international court because the same (or like-minded) people who would be judging Israel are the people who propose and pass resolutions condemning her in the UN GA and SC on a regular basis.
  8. 29 Dec '16 21:25 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    Israel's apologists object so much to having Israel held to account in an international court because the same (or like-minded) people who would be judging Israel are the people who propose and pass resolutions condemning her in the UN GA and SC on a regular basis.
    I already know the Israeli apologist excuse that every international court must be composed of
    anti-Semites who cannot fairly judge any Jews for killing, imprisoning, or dispossessing Palestinians.

    Would Sh76 have objected to the Nuremberg trials on the grounds that the judges had anti-German bias?
    It was clear that some judges (particularly Soviets) were bent on revenge against the Germans.

    The case for Israel vis-a-vis the Palestinians is extremely weak. The only reason why
    nearly all Americans support Israel so much is decades of 'brainwashing' by ludicrous
    pro-Israeli propaganda, which also has dehumanized and demonized the Palestinians.

    It would be a step forward against ludicrous pro-Israeli propaganda if more Americans
    became aware of the fact that Israel attacked an American ship, killing 34 Americans.
    Some survivors have complained that American politicians show more concern for appeasing
    Israel (with its powerful lobby) than about Americans who have been killed by Israel.
  9. 29 Dec '16 22:45
    Originally posted by sh76
    Israel's apologists object so much to having Israel held to account in an international court because the same (or like-minded) people who would be judging Israel are the people who propose and pass resolutions condemning her in the UN GA and SC on a regular basis.
    Which of the Yugoslav war crimes court's decisions would you say you disagree with most?
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 Dec '16 23:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Including the Old City of Jerusalem?

    Would the Palestinian state really be justified in stripping citizenship of people living within their borders because they're Jews?

    Do you think it's realistic to expect almost 500,000 people to accept finding themselves now living in another country?

    Wouldn't that hurt the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who ...[text shortened]... s, for the borders to be part of a negotiated settlement rather than something forced by the UN?
    Yes.

    No, but they would be justified in stripping them of their non-existent citizenship because they are illegal trespassers.

    Larger groups have done so in the past. More realistically, I'd expect them to immigrate to Israel as the Gaza settlers did.

    Israel has severely restricted Palestinian movement over the Green Line in the last decade and imported in more malleable foreign workers from other countries. Palestine would survive even if Israel no longer wanted to exploit its People.

    Yes, it would be better. But since Israel seems utterly uninterested in any negotiated settlement which results in a true, sovereign Palestinian State pressure needs to be brought to bear on them. Since the US won't do it directly due to domestic political considerations, the UN doing so is a viable alternative.
  11. 30 Dec '16 02:06
    Daniel Barenboim (a Jew born in Argentina) holds both Israeli and Palestinian citizenship.
    Already an Israeli citizen, he applied for Palestinian citizenship (or the closest equivalent)
    as a gesture of solidarity with the Palestinian people. One of his closest friends was the
    late Edward Said, a US citizen of Palestinian heritage who was a critic of Israel and Zionism.

    My point is it's wrong for pro-Israeli propagandists to keep repeating the lie that the Palestinians
    hate all Jews just for being Jews. It's true that the Palestinians have good reasons to
    fear or to hate Israeli Jews in general on account of what these Jews have done to them,
    But the Palestinians have shown that they are ready to accept Jews who attempt to treat
    them as equal human beings rather than objects to be ordered around at the point of a gun.
    Daniel Barenboim may well be more admired among the Palestinians than Israeli Jews.