Originally posted by MelanerpesIt is my suspicion that nascent capitalism is what spurred the reformation forward. Protestantism was all about reconciling commerce with piety.
But why has the Catholic church so strongly retained the original egalitarian teachings of Jesus, while many other forms of Christianity seem to have greatly minimized them?
Especially given how the Catholic church would seem to be more heavily prone to the hierarchical and status-quo issues than any other Christian body
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, that was a contributing factor. But by itself, I don't think it would have been sufficient. I think there were other motivations at work. I think the spirit of commerce that was rising at the time fueled the reformation to a large degree.
it was not an action against the perceived illicit practice of selling indulgences?
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Originally posted by SeitseSo, tell me what is your feeling re: development without materialism. Is it possible at all?
I think rwingett put clearly above what one of the points of debate is:
where is the balance of the Christian doctrine with the reality of the
institution, particularly when it boils down to its performance in areas
where there are strong created interests.
The second point, also correctly spotted by DrKF, is how to further the
calling made by the pop
So, tell me what is your feeling re: development without materialism.
Is it possible at all?
This is one of the root issues behind most of the political disputes regarding capitalism and the role that it plays.
Free market capitalism is at it's base a "materialist" system. Experience has shown that it's been a very effective system for producing a large abundance of "stuff" - much of it using profoundly advanced technologies. And this "stuff" has greatly increased the living standards of many people, including many of the poor (who would have been considered fabulously wealthy a number of centuries earlier).
But there are the various "spiritual issues" involved with any economic system (and especially one as material-based as capitalism). Jesus, for instance, was very concerned that the pursuit of wealth for it's own sake could blind people to issues involving how compassionately they relate to other people, and whether they can find deeper meanings in life. Hence, the famous parable on passing through the eye of a needle.
I don't believe Jesus was really trying to say that capitalism or any other economic system should be dissolved. I don't think he wanted everyone to actually become dirt poor. But one thing he was strongly challenging was the prevailing view that one's wealth was in itself a "sign of God's favor".
The thing I find extremely ironic is that it seems like the left-wingers (who include a relatively high proportion of atheists and agnostics) seem much more concerned about the various spiritual issues than the people who claim to be devout Christians.
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Originally posted by rwingettProtestantism seems more to have been a reaction against a Catholic Church that had become too corrupted by wealth and power (much of it derived from commerce). Protestantism was a major movement away from huge ornate cathedrals, luxurious vestments, elaborate processions, and other ostentatious displays of wealth - and move towards a much simpler, basic form of worship.
It is my suspicion that nascent capitalism is what spurred the reformation forward. Protestantism was all about reconciling commerce with piety.
I think the main push was the rise of the printing press that allowed the everyday person to have direct access to the Bible and its teachings (and more access to writings critical of the Catholic church). The result was a move towards an ever more individualistic approach to religion that didn't rely on a particular church and its rituals.
Originally posted by Melanerpesthe frugal and despotic Calvin tried to ban us from drinking malt whiskey and dancing, even now because of him, in the western isles, you can practically do nothing on a Sunday, well, gee, thanks Mr. Calvin.
Protestantism seems more to have been a reaction against a Catholic Church that had become too corrupted by wealth and power (much of it derived from commerce). Protestantism was a major movement away from huge ornate cathedrals, luxurious vestments, elaborate processions, and other ostentatious displays of wealth - and move towards a much simpler, basic ...[text shortened]... e individualistic approach to religion that didn't rely on a particular church and its rituals.
Originally posted by FMFThe Church, although in its infancy was essentially a pagan empire that saw the political benefit of adopting a mantle of Christianity over an imperial superstructure, nevertheless by the 11 century the Church saw the developement of the mendicant orders(the Franciscans and Dominicans) which were in a sense a further manifestation of grass roots spirituality where a mini explosion of interest occured in many parallel movements of peoples who were inspired by the via apastolica (literally living out their faith like the apostles) and thus to this day its not incongruous to see embedded in the same organisation some of the extremes of both the exercise of power, and the demonstration of Christian virtue.
This is news to me.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieso its a totally unwarranted, possibly even a slanderous to refer to your little shot you down the hatch before hitting the road as your 'calvin klein' 😛
the frugal and despotic Calvin tried to ban us from drinking malt whiskey and dancing......, well, gee, thanks Mr. Calvin.
Originally posted by MelanerpesProtestantism seems to have gone hand in hand with nationalist aspirations, too.
Protestantism seems more to have been a reaction against a Catholic Church that had become too corrupted by wealth and power (much of it derived from commerce). Protestantism was a major movement away from huge ornate cathedrals, luxurious vestments, elaborate processions, and other ostentatious displays of wealth - and move towards a much simpler, basic form of worship.
Originally posted by kmax87before hitting the road? no my friend, before hitting the Ceilidh dance floor to boogie on down the highway!
so its a totally unwarranted, possibly even a slanderous to refer to your little shot you down the hatch before hitting the road as your 'calvin klein' 😛
Originally posted by robbie carrobieam I showing my age??
before hitting the road? no my friend, before hitting the Ceilidh dance floor to boogie on down the highway!
"Ease on down ease on down down the road....
Don't you carry nothing · That might be a load · Come on, ease on down ease on down the road..".