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  1. 12 Jun '16 14:01 / 1 edit
    http://www.thenation.com/article/secret-history-lead/

    This is a good read. It is the history of how lead was put in gasoline to help stop the "knocking" of car engines.

    It is an indictment, not just of corporate America knowingly poisoning the environment, it is also an indictment of the media, education, the scientific community, and government officials who were complicit.

    This can be comparable to global warming today. What is offered as a remedy, cap and trade, is no real remedy at all. If fully implemented, not much would change in regards to global warming, at least according to science.

    It is interesting how mankind is willing to essentially destroy itself for a short term benefit. Is this simply our nature or is there hope for mankind?
  2. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    12 Jun '16 16:25
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://www.thenation.com/article/secret-history-lead/

    This is a good read. It is the history of how lead was put in gasoline to help stop the "knocking" of car engines.

    It is an indictment, not just of corporate America knowingly poisoning the environment, it is also an indictment of the media, education, the scientific community, and government offici ...[text shortened]... estroy itself for a short term benefit. Is this simply our nature or is there hope for mankind?
    Whodey...There might be hope for you yet! You're right on the mark with this one!
  3. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    12 Jun '16 17:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://www.thenation.com/article/secret-history-lead/

    This is a good read. It is the history of how lead was put in gasoline to help stop the "knocking" of car engines.

    It is an indictment, not just of corporate America knowingly poisoning the environment, it is also an indictment of the media, education, the scientific community, and government offici ...[text shortened]... estroy itself for a short term benefit. Is this simply our nature or is there hope for mankind?
    The bottom line though, is we figured it out and stopped it and stopped lead based paint also which causes problems also.

    I think lead was involved in the fall of the Roman Empire also, they used leaded glass and ceramics to store wine so lead leached out and there were probably thousands of people with active lead poisoning and I imagine, since the richer you are the more wine you would consume, it would be more prevalent among the rich of that society.

    Now however, there is a much bigger problem, also rife with deniers, climate change.

    The effects of climate change will effect every person on Earth eventually, far more than was ever effected by lead and there is a massive coterie of deniers paid off by big business.
  4. 13 Jun '16 00:41
    Originally posted by bill718
    Whodey...There might be hope for you yet! You're right on the mark with this one!
    Not so fast bill.

    I think cap and trade was nothing but a massive money making scheme by your beloved left and nothing more.

    Now do you think there is still hope for me?
  5. 13 Jun '16 00:57
    Trump is just like the rest of Dims who tout cap and trade.

    Trump builds a sea wall to protect his golf course from climate change while publically saying that climate change is a joke.

    http://electrek.co/2016/05/23/donald-trump-golf-course-climate-change/

    In my estimation, cap and trade is just like building a sea wall to deal with climate change.
  6. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    13 Jun '16 01:03
    Originally posted by whodey
    It is interesting how mankind is willing to essentially destroy itself for a short term benefit. Is this simply our nature or is there hope for mankind?
    It is not 'our' nature. It is the 'nature' of conservatives to desire profit over the lives of the 'little people'.

    And there's plenty of hope. Just don't let 'those people' become leaders.
  7. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Jun '16 02:37
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    It is not 'our' nature. It is the 'nature' of conservatives to desire profit over the lives of the 'little people'.

    And there's plenty of hope. Just don't let 'those people' become leaders.
    indeed it is not our nature, whatever that may be. But it is in the nature of the capitalist system in which we operate to reward certain behaviors and discourage others. It won't matter what leaders you put in place as long as capitalism is left to operate by its current rules. It will continue to bend society toward its will. Of course capitalism does not actually have a conscious will, but the effects will be exactly the same as if it did.
  8. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    13 Jun '16 02:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    indeed it is not our nature, whatever that may be. But it is in the nature of the capitalist system in which we operate to reward certain behaviors and discourage others. It won't matter what leaders you put in place as long as capitalism is left to operate by its current rules. It will continue to bend society toward its will. Of course capitalism does not actually have a conscious will, but the effects will be exactly the same as if it did.
    So no socialists used leaded fuel?

    ...or asbestos or built shonky nuclear power stations?

  9. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Jun '16 03:07
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    So no socialists used leaded fuel?

    ...or asbestos or built shonky nuclear power stations?

    Marxism-Leninism made many of the same ecological mistakes as Capitalism. But that hardly matters now as Capitalism was more successful in reproducing itself, thus advancing its attempt to make itself the only game in town.
  10. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    13 Jun '16 03:13
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Marxism-Leninism made many of the same ecological mistakes as Capitalism. But that hardly matters now as Capitalism was more successful in reproducing itself, thus advancing its attempt to make itself the only game in town.
    You do realise that with capitalism you are free to band with like minded fellows to develop and practice socialism and thus prove it's value if it has any?
  11. 13 Jun '16 03:14
    So far we have, people good conservatives bad and people good capitalism bad.

    Anyone else?
  12. 13 Jun '16 03:15
    Originally posted by rwingett
    indeed it is not our nature, whatever that may be. But it is in the nature of the capitalist system in which we operate to reward certain behaviors and discourage others. It won't matter what leaders you put in place as long as capitalism is left to operate by its current rules. It will continue to bend society toward its will. Of course capitalism does not actually have a conscious will, but the effects will be exactly the same as if it did.
    Capitalism differs from other isms in the matter of choices.

    Take internal combustion engines. They changed the world, conquering a variety of problems once thought intractable. With every change, problems are solved, and new ones emerge.

    Today emissions of private transportation may seem the worst of our problems, but just remember the emissions we use to deal with not only breathing the stench, but also avoiding stepping in.
  13. 13 Jun '16 03:34
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Capitalism differs from other isms in the matter of choices.

    Take internal combustion engines. They changed the world, conquering a variety of problems once thought intractable. With every change, problems are solved, and new ones emerge.

    Today emissions of private transportation may seem the worst of our problems, but just remember the emissions we use to deal with not only breathing the stench, but also avoiding stepping in.
    It's what you call knowledge without wisdom.

    All you hear is people preaching the salvation of science but in reality it is that very science that is killing us.
  14. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Jun '16 10:32
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    You do realise that with capitalism you are free to band with like minded fellows to develop and practice socialism and thus prove it's value if it has any?
    The point I'm making is that we're not free to do anything. Or we're not free to do as much as we think we are. All cultures, once started, operate by internal rules that present a constricted range of choices that its members are likely to follow. These cultures, or cultural units, use their constituent members as the means by which they compete with each other. In this process of cultural evolution, some cultural units succeed in replicating themselves and others die out. Human beings are no longer directing this process, but are merely responding to a range of cultural imperatives. Various cultural units may then overlap and reinforce one another, forming an interlocking network of imperatives which increasingly restrict the range of likely choices that their members can make. We have now reached the point where capitalist materialism has spread itself to all corners of the globe. It's internal operations will continue to bind mankind to its whims until, like a virus run amok, it kills its host (the Earth).
  15. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Jun '16 14:01
    Originally posted by whodey
    It's what you call knowledge without wisdom.

    All you hear is people preaching the salvation of science but in reality it is that very science that is killing us.
    The belief that technology will somehow save us from ourselves has become the de facto religion of the secular age.