Originally posted by eagles54Perhaps I misunderstood Darvlay's original post: I thought we were discussing whether it should be illegal, not our own personal beliefs about it's "rightness or wrongness". Of course, you are entitled to your personal beliefs, as is Darfius and everyone else, but I don't think that personal moral or religious beliefs not shared by others should be the basis for restricting other people's freedoms where they wish to do something having no DIRECT harm to another. To me the decision to kill yourself is your own and you should be able to ask others to help you if you so choose and they are willing to.
It *shouldn't* be binding to others, hence the 'To me....".
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Originally posted by Darfius“Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.” (Genesis 9:6)
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.” (Genesis 9:6)
Judas and the Jailer. Neither wanted to commit suicide. Judas actually repented and sought freedom from guilt by taking back ...[text shortened]... t no murderer has eternal life abiding in him" (I John 3:15).
I do not see how this verse is relevant. The armies of Israel slayed so many that any verse denouncing murder or bloodshed in the Old Testament is laughable in its context.
Judas and the Jailer. Neither wanted to commit suicide. Judas actually repented and sought freedom from guilt by taking back the 30 pieces of silver. But his repentance did not lead him back to God. In his suicide he rejected God and any help He might have offered. Oppositely, the Jailer listened and obeyed God’s Word and turned away from suicidal actions.
This tale does not, at all, show me explicitly that if one gave their permission to someone to take their life, they would be denied access to heaven. I know the story of Judas and, again, it is irrelevant.
Thoughts of suicide are evidence that one has come to a point wherein he/she believes that there are no more answers for them. Simply put, they reject any wisdom that God might offer for their lives.
I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence. But, relevant to this discussion, when these thoughts arrive due to being in a state of chronic, disabling pain with no hope of recovery, do you suggest that these people suck it up and look to God for wisdom?! What could God offer to help that person? A quick death, perhaps? Please enlighten me.
Once you are willing to admit that suicide is one form of murder, then it is straight forward to prove that murder, including suicide, is a sin. "You know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him" (I John 3:15).
It's third-person murder. You are granting someone permission to 'murder' you. What is the literal difference between that and, say, willingly trading your life in return for someone else's? Sacrificing yourself for the good of others. You are basically trading your life so that other's may keep living. I accept that these situations are not similar by any stretch, but literally how is one more sinful than the other according to scripture??
These scriptures and tales you offer as biblical proof that assisted suicide is a sin do not hold any water, in my eyes.
Originally posted by no1marauderYou didn't misunderstand my post at all. And so far, no one seems to know why Euthanasia has been determined to be unethical (including myself, of course).
Perhaps I misunderstood Darvlay's original post: I thought we were discussing whether it should be illegal, not our own personal beliefs about it's "rightness or wrongness". Of course, you are entitled to your personal beliefs, as is Darfius and everyone else, but I don't think that personal moral or religious beliefs not shared by others sh ...[text shortened]... r own and you should be able to ask others to help you if you so choose and they are willing to.
Originally posted by no1marauderAlright then, where do you see that I've advocated restricting others' freedoms? Is it not acceptable to offer opinion? You yourself offer an opinion! lol
Perhaps I misunderstood Darvlay's original post: I thought we were discussing whether it should be illegal, not our own personal beliefs about it's "rightness or wrongness". Of course, you are entitled to your personal beliefs, as is Darfius and everyone else, but I don't think that personal moral or religious beliefs not shared by others sh ...[text shortened]... r own and you should be able to ask others to help you if you so choose and they are willing to.
Why should we stop at people with degenerative diseases?
Surely there are hundreds of thousands of people with miserable lives who might do themselves and us a favour by quietly removing themselves from the world.
Set up cheap, accessible clinics, with facilities for donating your assets, organ donation, and cremation to generate cheap electricity!!
Originally posted by darvlaySacrificing yourself for the good of others is outside forces killing you against your will. If there was nothing threatening someone else, you wouldn't have to sacrifice yourself.
[b]“Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.” (Genesis 9:6)
I do not see how this verse is relevant. The armies of Israel slayed so many that any verse denouncing murder or bloodshed in the Old Testament is laughable in its context.
Judas and the Jailer. Neither wanted to commit suicide. Ju ...[text shortened]... er as biblical proof that assisted suicide is a sin do not hold any water, in my eyes.
Assisted suicide condemns two people. Two murderers. And yes, if you put your faith and trust in God, He will give you a mental and psychological peace that will aid the pain, and if He so wills, give you a quick passing. But to not even consider it and take matters into your own hands is a sin.
Originally posted by DarfiusSacrificing yourself for the good of others is outside forces killing you against your will. If there was nothing threatening someone else, you wouldn't have to sacrifice yourself.
Sacrificing yourself for the good of others is outside forces killing you against your will. If there was nothing threatening someone else, you wouldn't have to sacrifice yourself.
Assisted suicide condemns two people. Two murderers. And yes, if you put your faith and trust in God, He will give you a mental and psychological peace that will aid ...[text shortened]... you a quick passing. But to not even consider it and take matters into your own hands is a sin.
That's simply not true. You always have a choice. Don't sacrifice yourself and let the other person be killed while you live is the other glaring option. It is suicidal, no matter how you roll the dice. In such a situation, one could conceivably seek out God for a prompt, effective and miraculous solution? Being consistent with what you've stated, is that the route you would suggest? What do you think are the odds of success of such a method?
Assisted suicide condemns two people. Two murderers. And yes, if you put your faith and trust in God, He will give you a mental and psychological peace that will aid the pain, and if He so wills, give you a quick passing. But to not even consider it and take matters into your own hands is a sin
I believe it is extremely naive and flat out ignorant to assume that people in such painful situations who have contemplated suicide, assisted or not, have not sought out God's help and received nothing in return. He may talk in your ear on a regular basis but would it surprise you to know that he often ignores most people who call on him? If it does, you are not living on Planet Earth.
And I repeat: Where is the scriptural proof??
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Originally posted by eagles54I was trying to state that laws restricting euthanasia are a restriction of freedom, not your position. I offfered a personal opinion because, on reflection, I thought that's what was being asked for. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Alright then, where do you see that I've advocated restricting others' freedoms? Is it not acceptable to offer opinion? You yourself offer an opinion! lol
Originally posted by StarrmanI wholeheartedly agree with your post.
If the person has no life outlook, (by that I mean that were they to stay alive, they would be in serious and permanent physical pain, or their mobility is removed, or they will eventually lose their ability for cognitive sentience or a combination of all three) and that the disease causing this will eventually kill them, providing that they are in a proper ...[text shortened]... e faith. Humans are not gods and I believe even Jesus asked for god to end his pain in the end.
I gave you scriptural proof. You choose to ignore it because it is not in line with your views. *shrug* Doesn't matter to me, really. I'm not the one going to hell. But I won't sponsor other people's ability to do it.
And you ALWAYS get an answer from God when you call out to Him. Just because it's not an snwer you wanted doesn't mean you don't get one.
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Originally posted by darvlayIn the Netherlands the wonders of euthanasia have evolved into involuntary euthanasia and infanticide. The famous "Slippery Slope" in action that doesn't exist according to abortion and euthanasia advocates, a blatant lie.
I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed at length in this forum but I am wondering what folks here think of Euthanasia and assisted suicide. I, for one, am completely for it if limited to those with degenerative, terminal diseases a ...[text shortened]... port why it still remains illegal in nearly all developed nations?
Originally posted by ivanhoeInfanticide and involuntary euthanasia are now legal in the Netherlands, Ivanhoe?
In the Netherlands the wonders of euthanasia have evolved into involuntary euthanasia and infanticide. The Slippery Slope in action that doesn't exist according to abortion and euthanasia advocates, a blatant lie.
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Originally posted by DarfiusI gave a rebuttal to your proof and this is all you offer in return? What a cop out!!! For your information, I didn't choose to ignore the provided scripture, I gave reasons as to why I believed it was irrelevant. I have seen you state this in countless threads. People choosing to ignore whatever scripture you provide because they don't agree with it. I guess such ironic hypocrisy is not as obvious to someone like you, perched on such a high pedestal.
I gave you scriptural proof. You choose to ignore it because it is not in line with your views. *shrug* Doesn't matter to me, really. I'm not the one going to hell. But I won't sponsor other people's ability to do it.
And you ALW ...[text shortened]... se it's not an snwer you wanted doesn't mean you don't get one.
Then you say, "Doesn't matter to me, really. I'm not the one going to hell." Are you kidding me?! Comments like this are what make you the biggest joke in this forum.
But this, this takes the cake:
"And you ALWAYS get an answer from God when you call out to Him. Just because it's not an snwer you wanted doesn't mean you don't get one"
Not only does this statement reinforce my opinion that you are a naif and an ignorant baffoon but also goes to show that you chose to ignore what I wrote and the opinions that I expressed without even a thought.
I will repeat my statement, for your sake. Many people have sought out God's help and have received nothing in return.
To tell those people that they just didn't like the answer they apparently received (unknowingly) is completely disrespectful as you undermine any opposition to your opinion without a thought as to how earnest their intentions may have been or the context of the situation. You should be ashamed of the hypocrisy which you show and try to pass off as Christianity.
You are a sucker, Barfius, as I've told you and proven to you before. But I forgive you anyway.