Hi there.
Often in German TV you are now facing many discussion concerning about the range of actions a democratic state should take to ensure the safety of its people against terrorist.
The kidnapping of a German civilian by the CIA while he was outside Germany drives our politicians crazy (as the Internal Mininster were informed). During this discussion one said that we are talking about serious criminal activities here: The kidnapping of a German, who was brought to Afghanistan and held against his will in custody.
He then said that if not the US would have committed that but e.g. NIgeria we would tell them a he.. of stuff and threaten them etc. But since its the US everybody has to be cautious what to say.
Furthermore they asked victims of kidnapping from Iraq (kidnapped by Terrorists !) whether they agree to torture to get informations and they denied this.
Do you think and democratic state of laws have to deny any of those actions as kidnapping, torture etc. unless legalized by a judge in order to seperate from the terrorists or does this "new" threat legitmate the same actions we don´t want the Terrorists to use on our people ?
Your comments please.
Originally posted by RochadeI have heard nothing about this. Is this a hypothetical situation or an actual situation. If it is an actual situation can you provide a link so I can form a more informed opinion.
Hi there.
Often in German TV you are now facing many discussion concerning about the range of actions a democratic state should take to ensure the safety of its people against terrorist.
The kidnapping of a German civilian by the CIA while he was outside Germany drives our politicians crazy (as the Internal Mininster were informed). During this discuss ...[text shortened]... e the same actions we don´t want the Terrorists to use on our people ?
Your comments please.
Originally posted by RochadeI think I understand what you are asking. You are asking whether torture and kidnapping are acceptable methods to fight terrorism.
Hi there.
Often in German TV you are now facing many discussion concerning about the range of actions a democratic state should take to ensure the safety of its people against terrorist.
The kidnapping of a German civilian by the CIA while he was outside Germany drives our politicians crazy (as the Internal Mininster were informed). During this discuss ...[text shortened]... e the same actions we don´t want the Terrorists to use on our people ?
Your comments please.
The answer is overwhelmingly no.
Here is the link in english (dozens in GErman but this is the Washington POst article which also called a reaction in Germany.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR2005121400354.html
But my question is in general: What actions do you think are legitim for an democratic state of laws and must we seperate us from those scum by acting in our scale of laws to avoid the minimizing of the borders between them and us ?
The Dutch writer Lucebert said: "Everything of value is vulnerable."
Democracy (being free) is one such an "everything".
The more you clamp down to protect it, the less it becomes.
A far more creative attitude is needed to reduce attacks on "democracy".
It's generally not "democracy" which is under attack, but various countries.
Probably a different approach to international affairs will reduce hatred towards these countries.
Getting people to join you is always more effective than banning people. The great examples are the ANC, the PLO and the IRA.
Getting them to sit and talk and become part of the system is the best way of defeating them.
Another thing you have to understand is that our "democracies" are basically structures to maintain a rich elite (they created it, that's what it's there for). Many of these rich people earn money by owning the means of producing things we don't need.
So, they have to think up ways for you to need these pointless items.
Enemies are needed to sell weapons.
Drugs are needed to combat the drugs trade.
Speed limits are needed to justify speed cameras.
Etc.
And so I put it to you that the greatest threat to democracy is democracy itself.
Originally posted by shavixmirBesides your very strong but IMHO true statements about democracy (calls for a thread by you and a general discussion about state types) I agree with your opinion that democracy is vulnerable.
The Dutch writer Lucebert said: "Everything of value is vulnerable."
Democracy (being free) is one such an "everything".
The more you clamp down to protect it, the less it becomes.
A far more creative attitude is needed to reduce attacks on "democracy".
It's generally not "democracy" which is under attack, but various countries.
Pr ...[text shortened]... ras.
Etc.
And so I put it to you that the greatest threat to democracy is democracy itself.
I do understand the victims and their hatred for the people who committed the crimes. I would certainly kill anybody who would do anything to my family. With this action I would take the laws into my own hands.
But IMHO the state should act freely without these hesitations and should always be objective. No hatred and revenge should be commited by states.
Our states must rub them in their faces: Look at us, no matter what you do to us we will stand by our values and laws which are so fond to us. We will protect the legacy of our brother and sisters who died for the cause to enable us to live in a world we created. We will take you down and bring you towards JUSTICE (Not murder but justice !) with all ways legitimit and possible but what we won´t do is bend or break our laws. YOU SHALL NOT WIN !
That´s my two cents.
More of your opinions please. Maybe a discussion ?
Originally posted by RochadeI agree wholeheartedly. The many errors of judgement on the part of the 'coalition' with respect to Iraq, and the perpetrators of the 'war on terror' is a blind insistance that they are in the right, and are therefor justified to use whatever means necessary.
Besides your very strong but IMHO true statements about democracy (calls for a thread by you and a general discussion about state types) I agree with your opinion that democracy is vulnerable.
I do understand the victims and their hatred for the people who committed the crimes. I would certainly kill anybody who would do anything to my family. With this ...[text shortened]... U SHALL NOT WIN !
That´s my two cents.
More of your opinions please. Maybe a discussion ?
This only feeds the hatred against us, which in turn feeds the fighting, which feeds our hatred for them, which feeds... (you can see where I'm going with this...)
We need to be whiter than white in this delicate situation, if we ever want to stand any chance of winning (or at least surviving). Running roughshod over everyone who disagrees with the method used will not help, it will only fuel the fire...