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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    11 Jan '13 06:25
    The NRA and most American gun advocates keep telling us is a well armed citizenry is a safer citizenry. Consider the fact that many countries with very strict gun laws are actually safer countries in which to live. Easy access to guns does not make a country safer. Consider the violent crime rate of the USA compared to many other countries with strict gun laws.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    11 Jan '13 13:54
    Originally posted by bill718
    The NRA and most American gun advocates keep telling us is a well armed citizenry is a safer citizenry. Consider the fact that many countries with very strict gun laws are actually safer countries in which to live. Easy access to guns does not make a country safer. Consider the violent crime rate of the USA compared to many other countries with strict gun laws.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    Classic example of confusing correlation and causation.

    Which US city is famous for having strict gun control laws?

    What is its murder rate?
  3. 11 Jan '13 14:23
    Originally posted by bill718
    The NRA and most American gun advocates keep telling us is a well armed citizenry is a safer citizenry. Consider the fact that many countries with very strict gun laws are actually safer countries in which to live. Easy access to guns does not make a country safer. Consider the violent crime rate of the USA compared to many other countries with strict gun laws.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    What do you think it is about the safer societies, that makes them safer?
  4. 11 Jan '13 17:22
    Originally posted by bill718
    The NRA and most American gun advocates keep telling us is a well armed citizenry is a safer citizenry. Consider the fact that many countries with very strict gun laws are actually safer countries in which to live. Easy access to guns does not make a country safer. Consider the violent crime rate of the USA compared to many other countries with strict gun laws.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    Homicide isn't the only violent crime.
  5. 12 Jan '13 06:58
    Originally posted by bill718
    The NRA and most American gun advocates keep telling us is a well armed citizenry is a safer citizenry. Consider the fact that many countries with very strict gun laws are actually safer countries in which to live. Easy access to guns does not make a country safer. Consider the violent crime rate of the USA compared to many other countries with strict gun laws.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s480x480/59978_400091076744324_437821926_n.jpg

    Was that a film of bill and monica?
  6. 12 Jan '13 11:32
    Gun laws are a factor in homicide rates, but only a minor one. If you look at that list you will find the correlation between homicide rates and inequality/poverty to be much stronger.
  7. 12 Jan '13 16:14
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Gun laws are a factor in homicide rates, but only a minor one. If you look at that list you will find the correlation between homicide rates and inequality/poverty to be much stronger.
    But surely the availibility of guns exacebates the problems associated with "inequality/poverty", if you cannot lessen the motive you should at least try and tackle the means.
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    12 Jan '13 19:01
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    But surely the availibility of guns exacebates the problems associated with "inequality/poverty", if you cannot lessen the motive you should at least try and tackle the means.
    That line of thinking makes me very uncomfortable. It suggests that suppressing the downtrodden is an acceptable means of handling their complaints.
  9. 13 Jan '13 08:44
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    But surely the availibility of guns exacebates the problems associated with "inequality/poverty", if you cannot lessen the motive you should at least try and tackle the means.
    Yes, that's why I said "minor" and not "insignificant". But by making the discussion about guns you are avoiding the real issue which is poverty and a lack of equality of opportunity.
  10. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    13 Jan '13 13:44
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Gun laws are a factor in homicide rates, but only a minor one. If you look at that list you will find the correlation between homicide rates and inequality/poverty to be much stronger.
    You don't paint a very flattering picture of humanity. What you are saying is that people are willing to shoot each other if they don't have the same number of jujubes and licorice sticks as their neighbors.

    There are two possible solutions to the problem:

    1) Encourage people to stop coveting their neighbor's wives. ( I THINK I have seen a regulation about that somewhere), or,

    2) Make it government's task to distribute bread and circuses to the mob on a regular basis (i.e. high taxes on people with money, i.e. the rich).

    KN, you stoutly favor #2, whereas I am all about #1 (and not because it is biblical; I just think jealousy is an emotion people should overcome internally, not rely on government support to alleviate.)

    Your solution of "appeasing the mob" goes all the way back to Rome -- with mixed results, I would say. Theoretically, it will work as long as the mob stays reasonable (e.g. today's Sweden). But once the mob (or anyone) knows that they can get what they want at the expense of others, why would they not ask for more? It is not reasonable to assume that they won't.

    #1 is not about favoring the rich, either. Perfect government is about setting up principles that don't favor anyone and which maximize personal liberty.

    Just as an example, the solution to poverty is jobs not hand-outs. But the kind of contradiction I don't understand is when liberals say, "There aren't enough jobs!" and conservatives say, "Then deport the illegal immigrants -- that will open up lots more jobs!" the liberals reply "No!" You can scratch your head a long time over dialogue like that...
  11. 14 Jan '13 14:08
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    But surely the availibility of guns exacebates the problems associated with "inequality/poverty", if you cannot lessen the motive you should at least try and tackle the means.
    If you look at FBI statistics, homicides have been trending lower for 30 yrs. Including gun homicides. At the same time, gun ownership has increased. It's also interesting to note that the number one cause of death related to guns is suicide. Whatever regulations the vp suggests probably won't have much of an impact on suicides. Here's an article about mass shootings from the latimes
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-mass-shootings-common-20121218,0,6511082.story
    That makes for interesting reading.

    It's also worth noting that many of the mass shootings that are happening now are occurring at gun free establishments. Shopping malls, schools, and movie theaters do not allow guns on the premises.
  12. 14 Jan '13 14:29
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    You don't paint a very flattering picture of humanity. What you are saying is that people are willing to shoot each other if they don't have the same number of jujubes and licorice sticks as their neighbors.

    There are two possible solutions to the problem:

    1) Encourage people to stop coveting their neighbor's wives. ( I THINK I have seen a regulat ...[text shortened]... ls reply "No!" You can scratch your head a long time over dialogue like that...
    If you get carjacked I wish you good luck in convincing the robber not to covet your wife. It is your prerogative to presume that personal liberty is maximized when crime is high and saying that people should stop being criminals is a solution to crime. I respectfully disagree.
  13. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    14 Jan '13 15:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Classic example of confusing correlation and causation.

    Which US city is famous for having strict gun control laws?

    What is its murder rate?
    Confusing correlation and casuation? Country "A" Promotes gun ownership and has a higher violent crime, and murder rate than country "B" where gun use is severly restricted. What's "confusing" about that??
  14. 14 Jan '13 17:20
    Originally posted by bill718
    Confusing correlation and casuation? Country "A" Promotes gun ownership and has a higher violent crime, and murder rate than country "B" where gun use is severly restricted. What's "confusing" about that??
    Two things that happen to coexist at the same time and place don't indicate any causal relationship between one and the other.

    That's why scientific studies are double blind, and some receive placebos.
  15. 14 Jan '13 17:23
    Gun violence is a result of a person's actions, not a gun's action.

    So the question of gun violence is more a question about what's wrong with people. Perhaps the gun violence has speaks volumes about why multiculturalism isn't so great. When you mix people of different cultures, you are bound to result in violence.