Try this: sit comfortably in a quiet place, allow your mind to settle naturally and try to avoid inner discursiveness. Watch as thoughts arise and pass. What is their nature? Drop all your concepts and simply observe. You will find that your thoughts are essenceless. That is their ultimate nature. They appear, yet they manifest as a result of causes and conditions. Try to hold a thought in your mind. See how long you can do this. You will find it difficult to maintain. Why? Like all phenomena each thought is momentary and fleeting.
The ultimate nature of all phenomena, physical and mental, is without essence. You cannot find "treeness" in a tree yet there it stands! I don't know how to say it any differently. I am not trying to 'sound' profound. I can also say that persons certainly experience happiness in all its relative states, however, that happiness is fleeting and ultimately unsatisfying.
I have no idea what the Platonic Forms are. Relative and ultimate nature are not elsewhere.
Originally posted by eagles54I don't think we're going to find common ground on this issue, eagles54.
Try this: sit comfortably in a quiet place, allow your mind to settle naturally and try to avoid inner discursiveness. Watch as thoughts arise and pass. What is their nature? Drop all your concepts and simply observe. You will find that your thoughts are essenceless. That is their ultimate nature. They appear, yet they manifest as a result of causes and con ...[text shortened]... no idea what the Platonic Forms are. Relative and ultimate nature are not elsewhere.
Originally posted by eagles54I posted it on the first page.
Well, you continue to question my points and offer nothing as a differing view.
How do you view happiness?
I'll take a stab and say happiness exists for any being when the pleasure that being experiences outweighs the pain s/he experiences.
EDIT - A more intuitively accurate definition might be when the pleasure would need to exceed the pain by a certain threshold.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWow. A broad assertion with no definition of the "threshold".
I posted it on the first page.
[b]I'll take a stab and say happiness exists for any being when the pleasure that being experiences outweighs the pain s/he experiences.
EDIT - A more intuitively accurate definition might be when the pleasure would need to exceed the pain by a certain threshold.[/b]
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be this smart?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYes, I saw that before I placed my post. It leaves so many questions that I thought you may want to say more on your point. Evidently not.
I posted it on the first page.
[b]I'll take a stab and say happiness exists for any being when the pleasure that being experiences outweighs the pain s/he experiences.
EDIT - A more intuitively accurate definition might be when the pleasure would need to exceed the pain by a certain threshold.[/b]
Here's a question for you. How does a person ward off mental and physical pain, and also accumulate the causes of pleasure in such a way that the pursuit can be called 'happiness'?
Originally posted by StarValleyWyThat's a very legitimate criticism. However, it does allow for a future rigorous definition given better technology. It's better than any other offering in this respect. It acknowledges the connection between pleasure, pain and happiness, which other people are denying. It's intuitively true however. If you experience lots of pleasure, and little pain, it makes sense that you're happy for as long as that lasts.
Wow. A broad assertion with no definition of the "threshold".
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be this smart?
Originally posted by eagles54How to become happy is a different issue than defining happiness, though defining it is a first step towards achieving it.
Yes, I saw that before I placed my post. It leaves so many questions that I thought you may want to say more on your point. Evidently not.
Here's a question for you. How does a person ward off mental and physical pain, and also accumul ...[text shortened]... in such a way that the pursuit can be called 'happiness'?
Part of my strategy is to follow my conscience to avoid the mental pain of guilt and to keep a good self image of myself, which brings me pleasure. I use introspection to determine what is important to me, and then I pursue those things as best I can. I revel in pleasures of the flesh, but I try not to overdo them, and I am always wary of the dangers that are associated with them. I do the things I enjoy, like solving logic puzzles and debating on internet forums. I try to avoid hurting myself physically as much as is reasonably possible. I make sure to have a circle of loyal friends. I keep myself aware that things can go wrong, so I can minimize the mental anguish that could come from unexpected disaster. However I don't dwell on such things. I accept my limitations while trying to lessen them. I could go on and on...
It is true that it's hard to know when pleasure exceeds pain. However people have an intuitive sense of these things. As far as the connection to the material world, I think there's plenty of evidence suggesting pleasure and pain are biochemically determined and theoretically quantifiable.
Originally posted by eagles54I don't understand what you mean. Yes, if you are unhappy late in life, or you die, then your happiness no longer exists. Is that what you mean?
By that way of thinking, serious illness, old age, the inevitability of death to annihilate oneself will make your happiness a distant memory.
No, it isn't really what I mean ATY.
What I mean is that your best laid plans for temporary happiness can come apart at any moment because of ripening causes and conditions. At that time, your grooming of your personal comfort level will not help you. A person certainly does not have to be old for causes and conditions to lay them low.
The ground of happiness whether it be temporary or enduring is in the mind. Few look inward and understand what mind is. Without that understanding, happiness at best will be subject to the inexorable forces of one's own negative storehouse of conflicting emotions.
Originally posted by eagles54Well of course the outside world can impose unhappiness on one. No matter how well trained your mind is, this can happen. Give someone a lifetime of torture in the hands of a master and they will lose their happiness.
No, it isn't really what I mean ATY.
What I mean is that your best laid plans for temporary happiness can come apart at any moment because of ripening causes and conditions. At that time, your grooming of your personal comfort level will not help you. A person certainly does not have to be old for causes and conditions to lay them low.
The ground of ...[text shortened]... l be subject to the inexorable forces of one's own negative storehouse of conflicting emotions.
You seem to be saying that with a strong enough, well trained enough, or wise enough, or something enough mind, this won't happen. I don't think that's true.
I do agree that mental outlook and being ready for disaster are big factors in achieving and maintaining happiness. However I think you think there is some way of achieving happiness that no outside traumas can defeat. I don't think that's true.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI do indeed believe that it is possible under the right circumstances for a person to achieve a happiness no outside traumas can defeat. It all hinges on knowing intimately the nature of one's mind, of knowing the true nature of phenomena.
You seem to be saying that with a strong enough, well trained enough, or wise enough, or something enough mind, this won't happen. I don't think that's true.
I do agree that mental outlook and being ready for disaster are big factors in achieving and maintaining happiness. However I think you think there is some way of achieving happiness that no outside traumas can defeat. I don't think that's true.
We stand with differing views. That is fine with me.