Originally posted by FreakyKBHI will admit things that have called themselves communism have been failures before. But I still think it is a better system.
What Karl had in mind for others to follow, and what he followed himself are two diametrically opposed ideals. One hundred thirteen years following his death, we still have ignorants pushing his ideas forward, despite their abject failure.
With your example of failure people have tried to fly for hundreds of years Leonardo da Vinci drew planes, the Greek myth of Icarus it it’s been a dream of mankind. What would happen if people thought “no one has flown yet I'm not going to be able to". The correct thing to do is to see the flaws in it and adapt them, smooth them out. For example don't let anyone like Stalin get so much power also try and get more countries to have open trade no blockades on countries you don't like.
Originally posted by Will EverittYou are young and impressionable, so I will be gentle. The cr@p that Marx posited is so far beneath the dignity and greatness of man, as to remain the domain of the gutter. But alas, in man's pride of intellect, he is easily swayed from the path...
I will admit things that have called themselves communism have been failures before. But I still think it is a better system.
With your example of failure people have tried to fly for hundreds of years Leonardo da Vinci drew planes, the Greek myth of Icarus it it’s been a dream of mankind. What would happen if people thought “no one has flown yet I'm ...[text shortened]... also try and get more countries to have open trade no blockades on countries you don't like.
The problem of sin in the world remains a constant thorn in the side of humanism.
Originally posted by Will EverittYou are incorrect. Stalin was far worse than Lenin, to be sure, but Lenin deserves no prizes himself. I disagree that he was true to Marxism. The Bolsheviks came to power with the slogan "All power to the Soviets (worker's councils)", but one of the first things they did when they came to power was to divest the Soviets of all power and concentrate it in the hands of the Party. At no time did the workers ever control the means of production. The fact is that Lenin never had any trust in, or use for, the common people. They were merely tools to an end for him. The suppression of dissent, the massacre of the Kronstadt sailors, and the institutionalization of the Communist Party hierarchy were all started under his reign. You can't pass all that off on Stalin.
The main error with your post is that I don't think classing Lenin with Stalin is accurate. Lenin was fairly true to Marxism but Stalin was just an out and out brutal dictator with some mental problems near the end of his reign. Lenin adapted Marxism to Russia but he read Marx like some Christians read the bible. Karl Marx did think up the violent revolution as the means for installing communism.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhat, exactly, did Karl follow in your opinion? His ideas were never tried during his lifetime. Nor were they ever really tried after his death. There have been no shortage of regimes who have claimed him as their inspiration, but none of them has implemented the most basic tenent of Marxism, which is: "the workers shall control the means of production." Until that happens you can call your system whatever you want, but it won't be a Marxist one.
What Karl had in mind for others to follow, and what he followed himself are two diametrically opposed ideals. One hundred thirteen years following his death, we still have ignorants pushing his ideas forward, despite their abject failure.
The fact is that you are as woefully ignorant about Marxism as you are about religion.
Originally posted by Will EverittThe only way to stave off the advent of more Stalins is to have an anarchist system. If you allow for a Communist Party hierarchy then there will always be more Stalins.
I will admit things that have called themselves communism have been failures before. But I still think it is a better system.
With your example of failure people have tried to fly for hundreds of years Leonardo da Vinci drew planes, the Greek myth of Icarus it it’s been a dream of mankind. What would happen if people thought “no one has flown yet I'm ...[text shortened]... also try and get more countries to have open trade no blockades on countries you don't like.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHHow, exactly, is Marxism beneath the dignity and greatness of man?
You are young and impressionable, so I will be gentle. The cr@p that Marx posited is so far beneath the dignity and greatness of man, as to remain the domain of the gutter. But alas, in man's pride of intellect, he is easily swayed from the path...
The problem of sin in the world remains a constant thorn in the side of humanism.
What is this "path" that man has supposedly been swayed from?
Explain how is "sin" is a thorn in the side of humanism? Then explain how a supposed problem with humanism translates into a problem with Marxism.
I think there is one main thing that undermines all of Marxist teachings, and that is embedded in human nature. It is greed. Greed for money, greed for power and an ever wanting lust of better things for the self. I don't think it matters what kind of political idealism you bring in. No matter how fair it may seem on paper, there will always be some dog that manipulates the system to their own advantage and sit in their ivory tower, p**sing on everyone else that got them there in the first place.
Originally posted by rwingettI think the biggest problem in this aspect is the "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase between capitalism and communism never really happened like Marx planned. Marx planned the working class to rule but this has not happened and I can't imagine it happening as I fail to understand just how it would work. Lastly I would say my interest in communism is higher then my belief in it, to say I have a larger interest in learning about it then partaking in it.
The only way to stave off the advent of more Stalins is to have an anarchist system. If you allow for a Communist Party hierarchy then there will always be more Stalins.
Originally posted by Will EverittI have little use for things like the dictatorship of the proletariat. For this reason I'm far more interested in Bakunin than Marx these days.
I think the biggest problem in this aspect is the "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase between capitalism and communism never really happened like Marx planned. Marx planned the working class to rule but this has not happened and I can't imagine it happening as I fail to understand just how it would work. Lastly I would say my interest in communism i ...[text shortened]... n my belief in it, to say I have a larger interest in learning about it then partaking in it.
Originally posted by jimslyp69I don't believe in the constancy or immutability of "human nature." Capitalism praises greed and selfishness as virtues, so it conditions people to grow up to be greedy and selfish. Not much of a surprise there. But it needn't be so. Change the values by which people are raised and you will change their supposed "nature."
I think there is one main thing that undermines all of Marxist teachings, and that is embedded in human nature. It is greed. Greed for money, greed for power and an ever wanting lust of better things for the self. I don't think it matters what kind of political idealism you bring in. No matter how fair it may seem on paper, there will always be some dog th ...[text shortened]... and sit in their ivory tower, p**sing on everyone else that got them there in the first place.
Originally posted by AmauroteWhen you get off your arse and do something about it instead of expecting everything on a plate!
I'd be a little bit worried if your teacher gave you this verbatim, Howell, it seems very tendentious - if it's your own view, great, but "Everyone has their own right to run their own business" in particular is a bit of a reach - where do I get the money to have mine, then?
Originally posted by Howell123Communism or should we say socilaism, doesn't work. Although its in purest form (please read karl Marx) equlaity is a beautiful idea, those at the top of the hierarchical tree tend to abuse their posistion. If you like history check out the atrocities of communist history be it in the USSR, The Peoples republic of China or Cambodia. Im sure it will change your inchoate mind about re-introducing a socialist/communist state within contemporary society!!!!!!
I was sitting in my history lesson yesterday when we were on the topic of the Cold War Now If you don't know already The Cold War was mostly a war based around USA Vs USSR (Formely known today as Russia) And we were discussing how both sides tried to brainwash europeans into being either Capitalist OR Communist.
Capatilsim is what U.S.A and U.K are toward ...[text shortened]... Communism?
PLease Reply and don't hesistate to offend my intellegence since i'm only 14.