Etiquette on copyright

Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
I think maybe there can be issues when the content producers and publishers/distributors have too much power and leverage over people. Especially with young people, it can be a social death not to have access to whatever their generation is watching or reading, be it Harry Potter or the Hunger Games. This can affect their mental health and, (I believ ...[text shortened]... he so-called artists. Modern celebrity culture is full of these people who frankly are a menace.

Most people who want to read popular books written and published in English can get a library card. Similarly, if "everyone" is reading them, then surely someone has finished reading and can lend the book out if one can't afford to buy it. My town has a whole chain of resale book shops where people can trade in their used books; it's become so popular that the town to the north also has some branches. My point is that if someone is living where there is access to such books, pirating is theft and lazy. If you can afford internet connection, you can afford to go to the web site and get the e-book version of whatever you want.

I have a far different opinion for people who are denied access to reading or listening materials because the government doesn't want citizens and residents to have access to "western" music or literature. In that case, have at it. There is no other way to get those materials, and I think most creators would rather you have access to their art.



Other note: I was at a Verizon store one day because I needed a new battery for my antique back-up phone (blackberry) while I waited for my phone contract to end so I could upgrade (my "good" phone had died). I was feeling quite sorry for myself as I watched people get whatever phone they wanted. Then this woman came in with this kid who was her nephew. He was 12-15 years old. She had a white iPhone which she'd had for over a month, and she wanted to trade it in (for a brand new!) black iPhone for said boy. Of course they wouldn't do it. So she offered to give the boy the white phone instead. He refused. It was white. Seriously. He was going to be given a cell phone, an iPhone no less, for free, just for breathing nicely, but he didn't want it because the case was white...the case that most people cover with some sort of protective case.

Originally posted by Sahuaro
If you can afford internet connection, you can afford to go to the web site and get the e-book version of whatever you want.

I very much agree with most of your post, but this statement is not true, even if it is maybe just about acceptable as a broad generalisation. Perhaps it's different in America, but in the UK modern life is basically impossible without at Internet connection. If you don't have one you are a technological have-not, and unless you are an older, well-established person your future is bleak. You really cannot afford not to have an Internet connection (and at the library you can only have 1 hour per day for free, that is if you can get access to a machine). There are a lot of people who have an Internet connection but are still living in relative poverty. It is very cheap to be connected to the Internet (as little as £5 per month, sometimes less), so I think the view you expressed is now rather dated.

Regarding the boy who wouldn't accept a white iPhone, he's sounds disgracefully spoilt. I tend to avoid getting upset now about that sort of family, but it's hard not to when one considers the environmental impact of the way we as a society currently own and upgrade technology.

Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
I don't want to bother him with requests for reproduction of his poem on rhp but I want to share it respectfully. At the same time I would not want to hurt sales of any book it may be published in, even if posthumously.

You believe that reading this poem might deter people from buying a book in which the poem might be published in the future? What is it about the poem, in your estimation, that could hurt sales of such a book?

Ah. The cheapest I've seen internet here (in the US) is around 21 Pounds/26 Euros, so an e-book can be less than 4 Euros/3 Pounds. Most of my students don't have internet, and neither do many of the teachers. Some of those teachers won't even use the internet at school for the things we have it for (posting grades to a reading web site, school email, etc.). When I don't have internet it's for financial reasons, but lots of the people I know just have no interest in it. That said, my coworkers range from young 20s to young 60s, and the younger ones are more connected.

Originally posted by FMF
You believe that reading this poem might deter people from buying a book in which the poem might be published in the future? What is it about the poem, in your estimation, that could hurt sales of such a book?

That's a very good point. I suppose the only worry I have is that I want to minimise being part of a precedent towards copying and original creative material to share with the world at large. It makes me uncomfortable to imagine both that I might offend someone I admire (the poem, song, or video's creator) and that people may feel, once reading the poem etc. that they do not desire to "own" it in the conventional sense any more. Although copying and pasting one work may have neglible effect, I don't want to be encouraging people by example. Also, poems are often deliberately formatted in a precise way that is rarely transferred through copy and paste, and the typeface may also be changed.

Of course, perhaps the artists would like me to do the above, but I don't really have a way of knowing whether they would or not, and definitely don't have time to be keeping track of the potentially changing and complex preferences and viewpoints of artists who speak on these matters.

Originally posted by Sahuaro
Ah. The cheapest I've seen internet here (in the US) is around 21 Pounds/26 Euros, so an e-book can be less than 4 Euros/3 Pounds. Most of my students don't have internet, and neither do many of the teachers. Some of those teachers won't even use the internet at school for the things we have it for (posting grades to a reading web site, school email, etc. ...[text shortened]... t said, my coworkers range from young 20s to young 60s, and the younger ones are more connected.

Lol. Over here, I tend to assume the only people aged 40 and below who don't have the Internet are too busy binge-drinking, racing small cars around towns or smoking wacky-baccy.

Edit: I have just said 'Lol' in a civilised conversation. I can hear a scornful, mocking, mimicking voice in my head... and yes, I think it's my voice. I think I should cancel my broadband deal straight away and go out and join the drunken revellers!

Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
That's a very good point. I suppose the only worry I have is that I want to minimise being part of a precedent towards copying and original creative material to share with the world at large. It makes me uncomfortable to imagine both that I might offend someone I admire (the poem, song, or video's creator) and that people may feel, once reading the p ...[text shortened]... tentially changing and complex preferences and viewpoints of artists who speak on these matters.

As a matter of interest, was this poem published in a printed newspaper that may have had thousands and thousands of copies left outside hotel room doors, left around in doctors' and dentists' waiting rooms for patients to look at, handed to passengers boarding airplanes, left on seats in commuter trains, bought by one person in an office and then handed round between colleagues or left on the table in the coffee corner, could the poem have been on sheets of newspaper used to wrap fish and chips [*United kingdom only], or to stop paint dripping onto carpets, or to stop beer bottles in a duffel bag from jangling, etc. etc. Was the poem printed in copies of newspapers whose pages may have had fates such as these? Just seeking information/assumptions.

Originally posted by FMF
As a matter of interest, was this poem published in a printed newspaper that may have had thousands and thousands of copies left outside hotel room doors, left around in doctors' and dentists' waiting rooms for patients to look at, handed to passengers boarding airplanes, left on seats in commuter trains, bought by one person in an office and then handed round b ...[text shortened]... f newspapers whose pages may have had fates such as these? Just seeking information/assumptions.

No. All copies of the Times are purchased by a secret organisation known simply as #HashtagMafia, and piled up behind a Chinese takeaway in Preston using the labour of specially-trained otters, in an attempt to create a 21st Century Tower of Babel.

Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
No. All copies of the Times are purchased by a secret organisation known simply as #HashtagMafia, and piled up behind a Chinese takeaway in Preston using the labour of specially-trained otters, in an attempt to create a 21st Century Tower of Babel.

Another thought: what about someone who purchases The Times then reading out the poem, from beginning to end, to all the people in the same train carriage? Should that person have qualms?

Originally posted by Sahuaro
Ah. The cheapest I've seen internet here (in the US) is around 21 Pounds/26 Euros, so an e-book can be less than 4 Euros/3 Pounds. Most of my students don't have internet, and neither do many of the teachers. Some of those teachers won't even use the internet at school for the things we have it for (posting grades to a reading web site, school email, etc. ...[text shortened]... t said, my coworkers range from young 20s to young 60s, and the younger ones are more connected.

Also, most eBooks here, except for the near-universally cruddy self-published ones, are at least £7, often more. They're only a little cheaper than the print books, which tend to start at £8 or £9 or more for thicker tomes.

Not a huge difference but enough to sort of 'throttle' your book-buying when on a tight budget.

Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
His name is Clive James. The poem is called "Sentenced to Life", the newspaper is The Times (of London)...

Do you imagine Clive James was paid a lump sum for his poem or do you think The Times may have offered him a rate that factored in how many people bought that particular issue of the paper or how many people might have been estimated to have read it?

Originally posted by FMF
Another thought: what about someone who purchases The Times then reading out the poem, from beginning to end, to all the people in the same train carriage? Should that person have qualms?

If they got to their copy before #HashtagMafia they had better be careful, is all I can say. The law of omerta prohibits me from going further.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you imagine Clive James was paid a lump sum for his poem or do you think The Times may have offered him a rate that factored in how many people bought that particular issue of the paper or how many people might have been estimated to have read it?

Without any knowledge of the financial dealings of newspapers and their contributors, I'd guess at the former, but I really have no idea.

Originally posted by FMF
You believe that reading this poem might deter people from buying a book in which the poem might be published in the future? What is it about the poem, in your estimation, that could hurt sales of such a book?

I can only assume that wider exposure of the poem [assuming it is not a badly written poem] could only serve to increase possible sales rather than inhibit them. Having said that, the choices about exposure, samples and sales potential ought to be the prerogative of the author and his or her publisher, and not in the unilateral hands of passionate consumers and fans.

Originally posted by FMF
I can only assume that wider exposure of the poem [assuming it is not a badly written poem] could only serve to increase possible sales rather than inhibit them. Having said that, the choices about exposure, samples and sales potential ought to be the prerogative of the author and his or her publisher, and not in the unilateral hands of passionate consumers and fans.

Very succinctly put, and you're probably right. Especially with poetry perhaps, more than music or visual art.