Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksGuess when they make a big deal out of a pitcher winning 300 games, it's a mistake; ONLY his ERA (preferably in a weaker league) should count. I also see you conveniently ignore Petitte's 2005 ERA which was far better than Zambrano's. As the stats I already gave show, Petitte and Zambrano's wins and ERA are virtually identical over the last three years, but somehow in your "mind" you've decided Petitte is a #3 and Zambrano a #1. Weird.
First of all besides being wrong and obnoxious (to hide your ignorance) I am a Yankee fan and I therefore root for Pettitte and not Zambrano. But win totals are not the only measure of pitchers. Zambrano's ERA is a full run better this year; it was better last year and it was better the year before when both were in the NL. At no point in his ca ...[text shortened]... that signed him now as ace would be a horrible staff. Zambrano, with an ERA under 3 is an ace.
Zambrano right now isn't the best pitcher on his team. If he keeps pitching like he has lately he might wind up with only 12-14 wins; hardly "ace" material.
EDIT: Since June 12, Petitte is 6-2 with a 2.18 ERA while "ace" Zambrano is 2-3 with a 3.98 ERA.
Your statement that Zambrano and Pettitte have virtually idenetical numbers is 100% false.
Pettitte over the last 3 years has a total record of 40-29; Zambrano 44-24. 2008 Pettitte's ERA 3.86: Zambrano almost a full run less 2.98. 2007 Pettitte 4.05; Zambrano 3.95. 2006 (both were in the NL) Pettitte 4.20: Zambrano 3.41.
Pettitte played on better teams with a better pen. Plus as outlined in the Mitchell Report and later admitted Pettitte cheated.
So I'll summarize by saying that Zambrano who over the past three years was on a worse team, with a worse pen yet had the better ERA, more wins, fewer losses and did not cheat is the better pitcher.
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksYour attempt to ignore 2005 is rather pathetic. Throw those numbers in please. Or if you want to ignore anything but current numbers, please read my post as regards who's pitching better NOW.
Your statement that Zambrano and Pettitte have virtually idenetical numbers is 100% false.
Pettitte over the last 3 years has a total record of 40-29; Zambrano 44-24. 2008 Pettitte's ERA 3.86: Zambrano almost a full run less 2.98. 2007 Pettitte 4.05; Zambrano 3.95. 2006 (both were in the NL) Pettitte 4.20: Zambrano 3.41.
Pettitte played e pen yet had the better ERA, more wins, fewer losses and did not cheat is the better pitcher.
The Mitchell Report has absolutely zero to do with your claim that Petitte isn't worth $16 million a year. Stop cherry picking stats and throwing up red herrings.
Yeah, you're a Yankee fan; my a**.
The Cubs won their division last year and are leading it this year: Petitte hasn't pitched for a division winner since 2003. Got any other falsehoods to throw out?
EDIT: Since you're not too bright, I'll say the obvious; what they're doing this year didn't affect the decision as to what to pay them for this year (which was made last year). Their performances for the three years preceding this year are almost identical as regards wins and ERA. Hence, the decision to pay Petitte the same amount as Zambrano FOR THIS YEAR was logical.
If it matters I am a Yankee fan (I actually root for the team not just the stadium like you) but I am not that stupid that I think 36 year old Pettitte and his 4 ERA is worth as much as a 27 year old Zambrano and his sub 3 ERA.
Cheating certainly matters because when players stop they often have decreases in production. One might look at Andruw Jones and think it is was a bad risk to give a guy like that tremendous money. I think that Pettitte was and the first half and will be in the second half of the season at risk of falling in that category.
You are the one who arbitrarily decided to include three years ago stats which really are not relevant when there is a clear difference each and every year for the past two and a half year. Pettitte is 36; he unfortunately is not getting any better while Zambrano is still in the prime of his career. What Pettite did at age 32 and Zambrano at age 24 is of almost no relevance in predicting what either will do this year. If you look at the three years before Zambrano was 16-7 with 3.41 and finished 5th in the Cy young voting, 14-6 with a 3.26 and 16-8 with a 2.75 ERA so it is not like I just cherry picked the years Zambrano was good.
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksPlease explain what possible difference it makes for THIS YEAR what their ages are. You are pretty stupid to keep ignoring the facts; Petitte used HGH twice 6 years ago when he had an injury - what that could possibly have to do with today is absolutely unclear. The idea that Petitte's production will fall off in the second half is contrary to his whole career including this year and last year; I gave the numbers - Petitte has the best winning percentage of ANY PITCHER IN HISTORY AFTER THE ALL_STAR BREAK! Did you miss that tidbit? And he went 11-3 after the break last year. And this year he's pitched way better then Zambrano for the last 6 weeks. What part of all that can't get through your thick head??
If it matters I am a Yankee fan (I actually root for the team not just the stadium like you) but I am not that stupid that I think 36 year old Pettitte and his 4 ERA is worth as much as a 27 year old Zambrano and his sub 3 ERA.
Cheating certainly matters because when players stop they often have decreases in production. One might look at A ...[text shortened]... .26 and 16-8 with a 2.75 ERA so it is not like I just cherry picked the years Zambrano was good.
It could be reasonably predicted that Petitte would win around 15 games like he has done for virtually every year of his career except the two he got hurt in. To my mind, that's worth $16 million a year. You've made no actual arguments it is not. Wiki sums it up nicely:
Through 2007, Pettitte is eighth among active major league players in win-loss percentage (.640); 12th in wins (201; all those ahead of him are older than he is); and 13th in strikeouts (1,844). He is fifth in strikeouts (1,416), sixth in games started (310), and tied for fourth in wins (170) among Yankee players. He is also one of only six active players with at least 200 wins, 1,900 strikeouts, and a winning percentage at or above .600. The others are Randy Johnson, Pedro Martínez, Mike Mussina, Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine.
Petitte is a top flight veteran pitcher and he gets paid like one. He's shown no signs of decline; he went 15-9 last year and pitched a fine game in the post season. He should be compensated for what he is; one of the top pitchers in baseball in crunch time.
Originally posted by leepoundZambrano pitched very well the first two months of this season, but has struggled since the beginning of June including having a stint on the DL. Last August, he was a miserable 0-4 with a 7.06 ERA. We'll have to see; but at this point if I was a manager I'd prefer Petitte the way he has been pitching and his excellent second half history over Zambrano.
Who would you rather add to you team Zambrano or Petttitte or would you feel you basically getting an equivalent pitcher? I personally would rather have Zambrano.
First of all, only a fool like yourself believes that Pettitte only used HGH twice. Admitting that you used performance enhancers once after you know they have the goods on you and then changing your stort to "oh, it was nice" just isn't credible. Even though I am a Yankee fan, I am not so blind to realize that Pettitte cheated to win his games and it trivializes his career accomplishments.
Furthermore, Pettitte is not the pitcher he was when he won 20 games and as most 36 year olds (especially those no longer using performance enhancers) he simply is not as good as he once was.
Thus, if 16M could get you a young stud like Zambrano (with an under 3ERA) and instead you are spending the same amount on Pettitte (and his 4 ERA) then you are overpaying for production.
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksStop lying and pretending to be a Yankee fan; it's sickening. If you or anybody else has no more evidence than the Mitchell Report, then I'll believe Petitte and not a jerk like you. Apparently the Commissioner did too as he was not suspended or disciplined. HGH isn't a "performance enhancer" when used to recover from an injury anyway, but it's no use explaining that to a clown like yourself.
First of all, only a fool like yourself believes that Pettitte only used HGH twice. Admitting that you used performance enhancers once after you know they have the goods on you and then changing your stort to "oh, it was nice" just isn't credible. Even though I am a Yankee fan, I am not so blind to realize that Pettitte cheated to win his games ...[text shortened]... spending the same amount on Pettitte (and his 4 ERA) then you are overpaying for production.
Please support this alleged decline of Petitte with some actual stats; I see a guy who's going to win 15-20 games yet again. And if he's soooooooooooooooo washed up, how come he's been outpitching "young stud" Zambrano for the last 7 weeks?
I am not sure why you insist that I am pretending to be a Yankee fan. You actually stated that you will no longer root for the Yankees when they build a new stadium. It really has little to do with the Pettitte - Zambrano debate but at least then, when I still root for the Yankees, there will be one fewer obnoxious hypocritical ignorant jerk sharing my allegiance.
Whether you like it or not, Pettitte is a cheater. After being named in the Mitchell report he gave some half-assed admission that he used HGH once and then changed it to "oh, I used it twice." How anyone can sympathize with someone for admitting to a crime AFTER they get caught is beyound me Pettitte's admission is no better than a driver who is pulled over by a cop and fails the sobriety test and says "oh I had two beers" yet from the blood alcohol level the guy had a six pack. Pettitte simply was caught and admitted to significantly less than what he did in a fairly feeble attempt to get off the hook. It simply does not ring true that he sort of used HGH and immediately felt bad about it. I think everyone one would laugh at Pettitte except his partner in crime (literally) spent so much time denying everything that Pettitte 1% admission seems like acceptance of responsibility.
You think it is intellectually honest to compare a few weeks but to start it right after Pettitte gave up 10 earned runs in a start? Even so, a few weeks is meaningless when, including that time period Pettitte's ERA is still almost 4 and Zambrano's is still under 3.
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksThe Mitchell report itself only gave two instances of Petitte supposedly using HGH; have someone read it to you. You can make up whatever you want, but it isn't supported by the Mitchell Report itself.
I am not sure why you insist that I am pretending to be a Yankee fan. You actually stated that you will no longer root for the Yankees when they build a new stadium. It really has little to do with the Pettitte - Zambrano debate but at least then, when I still root for the Yankees, there will be one fewer obnoxious hypocritical ignorant jerk shar luding that time period Pettitte's ERA is still almost 4 and Zambrano's is still under 3.
You can't seem to read a game log either; as mentioned above, Petitte is 6-2 with a 2.18 ERA since June 12. During the same period, "ace, young stud" Zambrano is 2-3 with a 3.98. Who would you rather have pitching a game for you NOW, considering that Andy Petitte has the best winning percentage in the history of baseball after the All-Star break (you haven't addressed that stat, have you?) including an 11-3 record last year the same year "ace" Zambrano went 0-4 with a 7.06 ERA in the critical month of August.
Originally posted by no1marauderMy whole point is Pettitte admitted nothing. They named two instances so he admitted two instances. It is hard to believe that every time Pettitte uses HGH he got caught. But maybe he is as clever as you.
The Mitchell report itself only gave two instances of Petitte supposedly using HGH; have someone read it to you. You can make up whatever you want, but it isn't supported by the Mitchell Report itself.
You can't seem to read a game log either; as mentioned above, Petitte is 6-2 with a 2.18 ERA since June 12. During the same period, "ace, y ...[text shortened]... ar the same year "ace" Zambrano went 0-4 with a 7.06 ERA in the critical month of August.
Seriously, there is no comparison between Zambrano and Pettitte and even you know it. You so badly want to win a losing argument that you start the day of Zabrano's worst start of the year -- the one on June 7th when he gave up 7 earned runs and refuse to count Pettitte's worst start which
Maybe you are brain dead, but I am not sure how you can count Zambrano's worst start of the season (which was a 7 earned run performance on June 7th) but not Pettitte's (10 earned run performance which was also on June 7th). Was one a night game and one a day game?
I am not sure how you can say that Zambrano has been bad recently. From June 8 to now his ERA went DOWN from 3.01 to 2.98. (He only gave up one unearned run in that time period). In Zambrano's last 5 starts earned he gave up the following number of earned runs: 2, 4, 0, 1, 4. How is that struggling?
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksI won't waste any more time with an idiot like you. To claim there is "no comparison" between two pitchers who have almost the identical number of wins and are close in ERA (with one pitcher pitching in a weaker league) over the last 3 and 1/2 years is moronic. Go back to third grade and try to stay awake this year as you obviously didn't learn anything in failing it last year.
My whole point is Pettitte admitted nothing. They named two instances so he admitted two instances. It is hard to believe that every time Pettitte uses HGH he got caught. But maybe he is as clever as you.
Seriously, there is no comparison between Zambrano and Pettitte and even you know it. You so badly want to win a losing argument that you s rned he gave up the following number of earned runs: 2, 4, 0, 1, 4. How is that struggling?
When Petitte winds up with more wins then your (yes, your; you are no Yankee fan - you didn't even realize Jaba wasn't in the bullpen anymore!) "ace" Zambrano. I'll dig this thread back up and laugh in your internet face.
Originally posted by no1marauderOf course you are done arguing: Zambrano and Pettitte both have their worst start of the year on the same day but Zambrano's start counts as a recent one and Pettitte doesn't. You could admit that you were wrong and that your argument is foolish -- but there is no need everyone can see that.
I won't waste any more time with an idiot like you. To claim there is "no comparison" between two pitchers who have almost the identical number of wins and are close in ERA (with one pitcher pitching in a weaker league) over the last 3 and 1/2 years is moronic. Go back to third grade and try to stay awake this year as you obviously didn't learn anything ...[text shortened]... anymore!) "ace" Zambrano. I'll dig this thread back up and laugh in your internet face.
I never said Jaba was still in the bullpen or implied it. That is why you chose not to quote me. Instead you just made something up. But he was a good portion of this year and good pens especialy help aging pitchers like Pettitte.
Finally, I am not sure how you can only measure pitching performance in wins. Zambrano's ERA is under 3. He has the 10th best ERA in baseball among starters (4 of the 9 ahead of him including the top two are AL pitchers). He's a top notch pitcher this year and has been the last five. Pettitte no longer is. His ERA is 42nd (right ahead of Zack Greinke). Sorry to tell you the 10th best and 42nd best pitcher just is not close.
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksUsing thus and therefore makes you look smart 😛
First of all, only a fool like yourself believes that Pettitte only used HGH twice. Admitting that you used performance enhancers once after you know they have the goods on you and then changing your stort to "oh, it was nice" just isn't credible. Even though I am a Yankee fan, I am not so blind to realize that Pettitte cheated to win his games ...[text shortened]... spending the same amount on Pettitte (and his 4 ERA) then you are overpaying for production.