Gadhaffi giving up Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

It was said that the US/UK policy towards Saddam Hussein would set the whole of the Middle East on fire. Gadhaffi is now giving up his weapons of mass destruction after a period of intense diplomatic action. The foreign policy of the US/UK has not led to the foretold Armageddon, but it seems it has led to the insight of other Arabic nationalist dictators ...[text shortened]... t is wise to change their political and military ways ......

Any thoughts on this subject ?

I believe the "intense diplomatic ation" was probobly a christmas card that simply said, "Thinking of you".

Mike

Originally posted by Nohup
1.
Lybia is on this peacefull course since many many years.
This course is mainly the result of European diplomacy in the past ten years.
2.
Lybia is not giving up any weapons of mass destruction.
Lybia has no such weapons. As Iraq had no such weapons.
Lybia is only making an engagement now not to plan for such weapons.
3.
The Middle East will stay a ...[text shortened]... to the white house, feelings of distrust took over again and a lot of the efforts were spoiled.

Could you give me a link to your local news Where you heard or read your story. Everywhere I looked to see if you could back up your statement said basicaly what you deny (except about the diplomacy).
Example: http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_1065055_1_A,00.html
He became peacefull after we put a missle into his house. He is trying to survive, simple as that. I doubt very much he has had some change of heart.
Big deal My cable tv has 250+ channels. I don't think that is relevent to this. It still does not say which particular channel you get your news from. Am I to believe you have news on all of them, all the time, and you watch them simutaniously, and that all are far superior to anything cnn or bbc report. Come on now.
What did this post have to do with isreal anyway? I don't see it.

Mike

Originally posted by Nohup
Hi Mike,

http://www.standaard.be/nieuws/buitenland/index.asp?ArticleID=DMF20122003_003&Snel=1
But i doubt you speak more than one language 🙂

250 channels for one doctrine ?
wow !
God bless you.
Jan

WASHINGTON - Libya stops its programme for development of mass
destruction weapons. That has the American president George w. Bush announced yesterday. The country takes with that an important step to reintegration in the
international community, it sounds.
The Libyan Ministry of Foreign Affairs has confirmed that the
country,,by one's own free will '' which have taken decision. The country wants strip himself of all equipment which possibly can
serve for the production of mass destruction weapons. Libya has been also prepared the international conventies concerning
the suppression of mass destruction weapons will respect.

,,Libya confirms again its obligation to all conventies, such as the added protocol at the nuclear non-proliferatieverdrag, and explains itself prepared every international research commission
to receive, thus an official text which was spread under journalists.

The Arab country has taken the initiative for the negotiations in
March himself, after conversations concerning damages for the victims of the
lockerbie calamity had been wound up successfully. Conversations between sniffing oil, Washington and London concerning the development of mass destruction
weapons by Libya have lasted nine months. Diplomatic gone, thus Bush, possible has made persuade the country of it an end to make to its
ambitions in this area.

Both George Bush and said to the British premier Tony Blair that Libya
with the step is place earns to repay in the international community. THE US find it still too asked raise sanctions against the country.

Lockerbie

Sunday the exact fifteen years have been suffered that Libyan
terrorists brought a pan Am-toestel above the Scottish Lockerbie to
deflagration. Thereby were killed people 270.

Beginning this year escaped Libya to Vn-sancties because it took the
responsibility for the attack and prepare themselves showed to
compensate for the families of the victims. Washington preserved however its trade boycott.


Is that close enough for translation?

This article did not say that he does not have any wmd. It does not even hint of it. Of course it does not say he does. Actually this article could go either way.
Let’s analyze the article.
First I would wonder, isn’t it strange that he would take action where none is needed?

But all that is beside the point. I see the whole problem is this: People tend to have strong feelings toward certain things, and the vaguer an article is, the more that is left to the imagination of the individual. This can be a bad thing. Especially in mob mentality. I think that if you are going to make a statement as strong as you have, you should be able to back it up with something that is not as vague and leading as this article seems to be.
I did not find any mention of Israel.?

Mike

Originally posted by Nohup

Well i back it up with 20 years of watching US middle east politics, and by having been four weeks in Jemen. Why do you want to exclude Israel from the discussion at all cost ? Most commentators agree that the Palestinian problem is at the ...[text shortened]... ilding a whole nation after we destroyed it ? Syria ? Iran ?

Personally, I believe the problems in the Middle East revolve around money. The whole thing is driven by individuals desperately trying to keep their power by exploiting individual’s beliefs. As far as the Jews and the Palestinians you may ask yourself: why is it that every time the two are talking and trying to negotiate a way to live together peacefully does some group ruins the whole thing?
Should the Jews just pack up and leave?
Where would they go?
I am not siding with any one Jews or Palasinians. I just think the whole thing is pretty stupid.

It's all about the money and power, I don't care what anyone says.
If you think the problems in the Middle East is about religion, you are wrong. Religion is a means to an end to the people with the power. They use it as a way to manipulate the poor, the uneducated, and the fanatics to do their dirty work. The last thing that these "people with power" want is a system that is not based on corruption. It would make them impotent.
It gives a black eye to religion.
So to sum it up, it’s a power grab.

Mike

Originally posted by Nohup

Well i back it up with 20 years of watching US middle east politics, and by having been four weeks in Jemen. Why do you want to exclude Israel from the discussion at all cost ? Most commentators agree that the Palestinian problem is at the heart of the problems in the middle east. But instead of tackling that problem, the Bush administration came up with tha ...[text shortened]... we get fat contracts for rebuilding a whole nation after we destroyed it ? Syria ? Iran ?

My origional point was that you were interjecting your personal oppinions that your media was saying something they were not.
In that whole article It did not once give any reference to Lybia currently "possesing" or "not possesing" WMD.
Thats all that I was saying.

Mike

Originally posted by Nohup
Hi Mike,
How can you possess something if you are still developing it ??
Jan

Just like you I can only base my oppinions on information given to me by others. With Slant. I lazily found one article, and I looked in france. Just to be balanced and fair.
http://newsdirectory.com/go/?f=&r=eu&u=www.iht.com
Here is the text:
Libya's leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, has admitted that his country had been trying to develop a broad arsenal of unconventional weapons, and he promised to dismantle them up and submit to international inspections, President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain said Friday.
.
Bush said that if Col. Qaddafi followed through, Libya could "regain a secure and respected place" among nations.
.
Libya's actions came after nine months of secret diplomacy, beginning with an overture from Colonel Qaddafi to London and Washington just as the invasion of Iraq was beginning.
.
Bush's aides, clearly seeking to build on the capture of Saddam Hussein last Saturday, described the Libyan action as directly linked to the Iraq war, suggesting that Colonel Qaddafi had decided to give up his weapons aspirations rather than face off against the United States and its allies.
.
Speaking to reporters in a hastily called session in the White House press room, Bush praised Colonel Qaddafi's agreement to open his country to full inspections.
.
This is the first time Colonel Qaddafi has admitted to having such unconventional weapons or programs to produce them, government and independent experts say.
.
But the details given by the White House indicated that for more than two decades, Libya had deceived international nuclear inspectors who have visited the country.
.
Like Iran, it hid facilities to produce nuclear fuel, though it did not appear that the Libyans actually succeeded in making the kind of fissile material needed to produce a bomb.
.
"Because Libya has a troubled history with America and Britain, we will be vigilant in ensuring its government lives up to all its responsibilities," Bush said.
.
His announcement came just two days before the 15th anniversary of the bombing of Pan Am 103, an act of terrorism for which a Libyan agent was convicted two years ago.
.
In a clear reference to North Korea and Iran, two other countries that are suspected of pursuing programs to develop unconventional weapons, Bush added that "I hope other leaders will find an example" in Libya's action.
.
In two trips to Libya, including one earlier this month, American and British intelligence and weapons experts were given a tour of the country's arsenal, reportedly including mustard gas, a World War I-vintage chemical weapon, and materials for making nerve gas and missiles, the latter from North Korea.
.
None of these discoveries surprised the experts.
.
But one senior Administration official told reporters on Friday evening that the Libyans had gotten "much further" in their nuclear program than the United States had suspected, showing the Western visitors centrifuges that could be used to produce highly enriched uranium.
.
The officials declined to say what kind of centrifuges had been found, or what nations appeared to have helped Libya. Both North Korea and Iran have similar programs under way, though the administration official said that in Libya's case, Colonel Qaddafi's government had not declared that it had actually produced any weapons-grade uranium.
.
"That is something we will be pursuing," the official said. He added that the United States had learned a considerable amount about North Korea's missile trading business in the course of the talks with Libya.
.
A British official said the Libyans had shown visitors 10 nuclear-related sites, adding that while the country had not manufactured a nuclear weapon, "it was close to producing one."
.
Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency will be sent to assess how close, and to monitor the dismantling of the facilities, British and American officials said.
.
Not surprisingly, the White House described the surprise announcement as a victory for Bush in facing down rogue states developing such weapons. They also touted the Libyan move as vindication for the decision to go to war against Iraq — where no unconventional weapons have been found — because of the message it sent.
.
"In word and action, we have clarified the choices left to potential adversaries," Bush told reporters. "And when leaders make the wise and responsible choice, when they renounce terror and weapons of mass destruction, as Colonel Qaddafi has now done, they serve the interest of their own people and they add to the security of all nations."
.
The Libyan government, in a statement, said it had made the decision of its own "free will."
.
The White House said that despite Libya's apparent renunciation of unconventional weapons, Bush was not yet ready to lift American sanctions; United Nations sanctions were removed on Sept. 12 after a settlement involving the Pan Am 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, which killed 269 people.
.
In London, Blair said the Libyan overture on disarmament was a direct outgrowth of the talks that led to the settlements over the bombing. Under that agreement, Libya agreed to pay at least $5 million to the relatives of each victim.
.
In January 2001, a Libyan military intelligence official was convicted in the bombing, while an executive with the country's airline was acquitted. Blair said Libya wanted "to see if it could resolve its weapons of mass destruction issue in a similarly cooperative manner."
.
Libya's latest actions complicate the debate over the Iraq war for the Democrats, particularly for Howard Dean, the apparent front-runner in the primaries, who has opposed the war and said recently that the capture of Hussein had not made Americans any safer.
.
On Friday evening, though, many Democrats were calling Libya's renunciation of its weapons systems significant.
.
Ashton B. Carter, an assistant secretary of defense under President Clinton who is now co-director of the Harvard-Stanford Preventive Defense Project, agreed that Iraq was a turning point in convincing Colonel Qaddafi to give up his weapons.
.
"One certainly hopes that what we did in Iraq put countries like Libya on notice that we're really serious about countering proliferation," said Carter, who has been advising Dr. Dean.
.
Some families of those killed on the Pan Am flight, now preparing to mark the grim anniversary, were clearly taken by surprise by Bush's suggestion that relations with Libya could markedly improve.
.
"I am in a state of horror and sickened shock," said Susan Cohen, whose only child, Theodora, 20, was on the plane. "Everyone was surprised by this."
.
"This was strictly a political, commercial decision," she said in a telephone interview. "I'm not a fool. I know it's oil and money interests. At the end of World War II, if Adolf Hitler could have been brought back in the fold, would we have done it? And this isn't even the end of the war."
.
Although Libya signed the international treaty banning nuclear weapons in 1975 and a similar international ban on biological weapons in 1982, independent weapons experts said Colonel Qaddafi had been trying to obtain unconventional weapons for decades.
.
Writing in The Nonproliferation Review in 1997, Joshua Sinai, then a senior analyst at the Library of Congress, concluded that Libya had in fact developed a "rudimentary capability to produce such weapons," particularly chemical weapons, by the late 1980's.
.
Libya is one of the few nations that have refused to sign the treaty banning chemical weapons. In a 1987 conflict with Chad, it became one of a handful of states to use such weapons in war, when it fired off Iranian-supplied mustard-gas bombs.
.
Washington has long accused Libya of producing blister and nerve agents at secret plants in Tarhuna, 50 miles southwest of Tripoli, and at the Pharma complex in Rabta, 75 miles southwest of Tripoli. Most of the chemical weapons seen by the visiting inspectors were at Rabta, one senior official said Friday.
.
Though Libya signed the treaty banning germ weapons in 1982, questions have remained as to whether it was complying with the agreement.
.
Intelligence agencies have alleged, for instance, that Colonel Qaddafi attempted to recruit South African scientists to help him develop biological weapons. And American intelligence agents concluded earlier this year that Nizar Hindawi, a senior scientist who once led Iraq's germ weapons program, had tried to emigrate to Libya in the mid-1990's, officials said.
.
But many analysts continued to say that if Libya had a weapons program at all, the effort was very primitive, and years from producing biological weapons.
.
Matthew L. Wald contributed reporting for this article. WASHINGTON Libya's leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, has admitted that his country had been trying to develop a broad arsenal of unconventional weapons, and he promised to dismantle them up and submit to international inspections, President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain said Friday.
.
Bush said that if Col. Qaddafi followed through, Libya could "regain a secure and respected place" among nations.
.
Libya's actions came after nine months of secret diplomacy, beginning with an overture from Colonel Qaddafi to London and Washington just as the invasion of Iraq was beginning.
.
Bush's aides, clearly seeking to build on the capture of Saddam Hussein last Saturday, described the Libyan action as directly linked to the Iraq war, suggesting that Colonel Qaddafi had decided to give up his weapons aspirations rather than face off against the United States and its allies.
.
Speaking to reporters in a hastily called

Originally posted by flexmore
rapalla i believe you have just supported nohup's suggestion that you have a narrow band of news sources:

you look to find a different source of news, and all it seems to be is reporting what the american administration said, or what bush said, or what the white house said.

i too find it hard to get a real alternative angle.

i do agree though that ...[text shortened]... with them nor would i trust bush. unfortunately i dont trust anyone to get rid of them either.

I agree with you whole heartedly. You only know what they tell you.
As for my defense I did say "I lazily found one article", not to be missleading.😏 I even looked on aljezeera, and could not find anything, (I may have searched incorrectly). I could go all night looking for anything that would agree with just about any point of view and never run out of resourses.
They either feed you misinformation or they or they exclude information.

Mike

Originally posted by Nohup
1.
Lybia is on this peacefull course since many many years.
This course is mainly the result of European diplomacy in the past ten years.
2.
Lybia is not giving up any weapons of mass destruction.
Lybia has no such weapons. As Iraq had no such weapons.
Lybia is only making an engagement now not to plan for such weapons.
3.
The Middle East will stay a ...[text shortened]... to the white house, feelings of distrust took over again and a lot of the efforts were spoiled.

"Lybia has no such weapons. As Iraq had no such weapons."

The Kurds do not agree with you on that last statement .....

"as long as the USA is taking no action to force Israel to apply to Uno resolutions."

USA is taking no action ? How do you know ?

Originally posted by rapalla7
You only know what they tell you.

That s why it is important to leave your pc once in a while.
If you want a realistic view of what s happening in the world,
you should try to travel a lot and to see things with your own eyes.
Instead of spending money on cia and navy I would love to see the usa spend money on projects allowing students to travel to europe, the middle east, africa ...
It would be a far better way to integrate the world.

However, even on your pc you can find alternative sources easily.
I forgot to point you to http://www.indymedia.org.uk/
Indymedia is a network of individuals, independent and alternative media activists and organisations, offering grassroots, non-corporate, non-commercial coverage of important social and political issues.
Enjoy.