General
19 Aug 03
19 Aug 03
3 edits
A while back I asked 'What's the difference between Liberals and Conservatives' and all i got back was pablum. Cliche answers right straight out of the (most popluar) tv show from last week.
Ok. Here's the reel poop...
Liberals are Third Person Future Tense only. They have absolutely no use for the past. There is a bright tomorrow out there that ' WE ' can build. ' I Have A Dream! '
Conservatives are First Person Past Tense only. They have absolutely no use for a Utopian Future. Why build another goofy thing that doesn't work because you didn't pay attention to all the mistakes from last time. ' I Have A Headache! '
It goes on and on and on. No wonder the postmodern deconstructionists think everything is a 'stereotype'. It is. For example, the following list of guarantee's are made.
If you are a Liberal then you will be for:
A War on Poverty.
Complete environmental regulation.
Controled economies.
Racial quotas.
No food additives.
No nuclear power.
Abortion.
Organic foods.
Big government. (We vs. It)
High Taxes.
Protectionism.
Social responsibility in all things.
A human nature written onto every person by society...
If you are a Conservative then you will be for:
An Individual War on Poverty.
Little of No environmental regulation.
Market economies.
Racial opportunities.
Quality Food.
Efficient Energy. (Nuclear being first)
No Abortion.
Safe foods. (more addatives the better)
Small government. ( I vs. Them )
Low Taxes.
Free trade.
Individual responsibility in all things.
A human nature pounded into every person by hard experience.
Being good, honest Chimpanzees, we all are obliged to be in a group. We can be in either group, but not both... At least not successfully. Kind of a sad state of affairs for a reasoning, intellegent species.
Mike
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWyI can't agree with you mike. Your lists are good (I think you meant the 2nd one to be concervative), but a very sweeping generalisation. You state that we must either ignore the mistakes of the past or remain in it - you give no option for trying to learn from the past to make a better future, so of course it looks bad.
A while back I asked 'What's the difference between Liberals and Conservatives' and all i got back was pablum. Cliche answers right straight out of the (most popluar) tv show from last week.
Ok. Here's the reel poop...
Liberals are Third Person Future Tense only. They have absolutely no use for the past. There is a bright tomorrow out there th ...[text shortened]... not successfully. Kind of a sad state of affairs for a reasoning, intellegent species.
Mike
Your statement that we must belong to one group or another doesn't hold - it's like saying that we must join the always naked or the always clothed party when neither makes sense all of the time. Why must we belong to 1 group or the other (because America is a 2 party system?)? Is there an entrance test that you must pass to be allowed to join, and all your answers have to be in at one side? What are these groups anyway? What happened to having an opinion on a subject without labelling it, and being willing to listen to other opinions? If someone wants to try to show me that showering fully dressed or walking to work naked is better then I'll listen (to a point!).
Personally:
Personal & governmental adressing of poverity - it's not our job to bail them out, but we shouldn't be making the hole bigger either.
enviromental legislation where it's necessary - don't ignore problems because it's cheeper, but don't go banning dihydrogen monoxide either.
market economies that are policed, because otherwise we live ina world where the ruthless win every time
No racial quotas - reverse racism causes racism. But don't ignore racism either.
food additives where necessary, but not just to make things more profitable.
Nuclear power - yay! all for it
don't get me started on abortion - it's one issue that I can't make my mind up on & pray that I never will have to.
organic foods? get rid of what we know is a bad idea (DDT etc), but that's no reason to ignore good technology
Government - small enough to be efficient, not so small as to be isolated & dictator like
Taxes - tax me as much as it takes to give the services we need. I've never complained at paying tax. Maybe about how it's spent...
Free trade - hell yes, but again it's got to be governed (monopolies commisions etc)
responsability - how can it be social or individual. Why not both?
human nature - can't answer because your point doesn't make sense to me
It's plain to me that it is the balance that we strive for, and Concervatism & Liberalism aren't the only weights on the scales. Most people (by effect of democracy????) are in the middle ground, but everyone will sway one side or the other depending on different views. Those that sway always to one side could be seen as radicals. Those who sway always to the same side because "all Liberal ideas are for stoned hippies" or "all concervative ideas are to line the pockets of the fat cats" need to open their eyes & ears more.
19 Aug 03
2 edits
Originally posted by belgianfreakThank you. I appreciate your view. Very similar to mine, i must admit. The only (minor) quivel might be the seeming response to the word "regulated". Wouldn't that be in opposition to the free trade issue you mentioned as requiring regulation?
It's plain to me that it is the balance that we strive for, and Concervatism & Liberalism aren't the only weights on the scales. Most people (by effect of democracy????) are in the middle ground, but everyone will sway one side or t ...[text shortened]... e pockets of the fat cats" need to open their eyes & ears more. [/b]
So that makes two of us. Think there is a hope for the world to develop a middle ground. I must admit I am encouraged.😵
The "Human Nature" issue is more of a philosophical one. It should be maybe "Please choose ... Hobbes, Smith, Holmes, Kant and Friedman... Or Godwin,Marx, Warren,Rousseau and Galbraith"
19 Aug 03
In life people fall into two groups, Australian or American.
If you are American then you will be:
Fat
Greedy
Ugly
Smelly
Loud
Ignorant
A little gay
A baby killer
Likely to time people out on vacation
If you are Australian then you will be:
Fit
Generous
Highly attractive
Clean
Demure
Highly educated
Super straight.
A baby kisser
Likely to give away free vacations
As you can see from my completely unbiased post, anyone who lives in America is BAD and everyone who lives in Australia is REALLY GOOD. Good day.
19 Aug 03
2 edits
Originally posted by dylA Limited perspective from a limited "mate", whatever the hell that is. You have a good day too. <Edit... Edit... Sorry Dyl>
In life people fall into two groups, Australian or American.
If you are American then you will be:
Fat
Greedy
Ugly
Smelly
Loud
Ignorant
A little gay
A baby killer
Likely to time people out on vacation
If you are Australian ...[text shortened]... BAD and everyone who lives in Australia is REALLY GOOD. Good day.
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by dylWhat do you think of Dutch guys...?😛
In life people fall into two groups, Australian or American.
If you are American then you will be:
Fat
Greedy
Ugly
Smelly
Loud
Ignorant
A little gay
A baby killer
Likely to time people out on vacation
If you are Australian then you will be:
Fit
Generous
Highly attractive
Clean
Demure
Highly educated
Super straight.
A baby kisser
L ...[text shortened]... anyone who lives in America is BAD and everyone who lives in Australia is REALLY GOOD. Good day.
Olav
19 Aug 03
1 edit
Originally posted by StarValleyWyI presume you understood what I was trying to convey through the wonderful medium of sarcasm Mike. Your first post not only pigeon holed two widely varying 'groups' of people, but made one appear to be the work of Satan when compared to the other.
A Limited perspective from a limited "mate", whatever the hell that is. You have a good day too. And don't mate with anything too smelly today.
Personally I don't think it's possible, or necessary, to define either group in an exact form. But if anyone does make the attempt, an unbiased (or as unbiased as is humanly possible) view would have to be taken.
And on the issue of my mating habits mate, beggars can't be choosers. Yes...I think that sums it up quite nicely. 😲
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by dylMy mistake then. You gave not a single hint at sarcasm. I don't know you well enough to make the inference. Sorry. You are entirely right about the way each group views the other. That is the entire point of this post.
I presume you understood what I was trying to convey through the wonderful medium of sarcasm Mike. Your first post not only pigeon holed two widely varying 'groups' of people, but made one appear to be the work of Satan when compared to the other.
Personally I don't think it's possible, or necessary, to define either group in an exact form. But if anyone ...[text shortened]... y mating habits mate, beggars can't be choosers. Yes...I think that sums it up quite nicely. 😲
"Generalities are generally not a good idea."... Only a starting point to get the juices flowing. I agree with you there.
As to beggers! Man do I know that feeling!😛 Please, next time add some kind of silly face when you intend sarcasm. I am not smart enough to read anything into anything.
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWyLOL. Sorry, I thought the baby killing reference would be enough 😵.
My mistake then. You gave not a single hint at sarcasm. I don't know you well enough to make the inference. Sorry. You are entirely right about the way each group views the other. That is the entire point of this post.
"Generalities are generally not a good idea."... Only a starting point to get the juices flowing. I agree with you there.
As to ...[text shortened]... ind of silly face when you intend sarcasm. I am not smart enough to read anything into anything.
Might I guess that your a conservative Mike? As you yourself acknolodged each side will always see the other as much worse than it actually is. It would be nice if someone who considers themselves a strong liberal could define both sides of the equation as they see it. While I tend to be liberalish in my views, I try to keep an open mind (I'm not saying anyone who has strong views doesn't have an open mind by the way, it's just that I don't feel I know enough about most issues to gamble the shearing shed).
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by dylWhy pick on US? Geeeeeesh!
In life people fall into two groups, Australian or American.
If you are American then you will be:
Fat
Greedy
Ugly
Smelly
Loud
Ignorant
A little gay
A baby killer
Likely to time people out on vacation
If you are Australian then you will be:
Fit
Generous
Highly attractive
Clean
Demure
Highly educated
Super straight.
A baby kisser
L ...[text shortened]... anyone who lives in America is BAD and everyone who lives in Australia is REALLY GOOD. Good day.
Rather than put all you misfits and criminals in Australia... England should have gone a bit farther and sent you all to the south pole!
Mate!😛
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by LivingLegendYou inadvertently made my point Olav 😀. There are so many different issues, and therefore opinions, that what Mike is attempting is just about impossible.
What do you think of Dutch guys...?😛
Olav
When a politician joins a political party, he is forced to make compromises. There is no way that he or she will agree with every stance his/her chosen party takes. In Australia there is a fairly steady traffic between the main parties (keep in mind there are more than two down here) which goes to show that the two mindsets are far from defined even at the highest level. A general idea of each is about the best anyone can do.
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by dylYea, I guess I would best be described as a "Torn Conservative". I want nothing more than that the human race expand to the astroid belt and build the next human civilization. Earth is a nice nest, but it will only support "consumer progress" for about another hundred years. If we're not out where the resources and energy are by then, well... then we can retreat into totalitarian utopias from which there will be no escape. "1984" on a global scale. I can't believe in God. I want every person to have the same rights and opportunities as I have. I think any group larger than three is a mob. I hate mob rule. I want every person to take the blame when it goes wrong and to be rewarded when it goes right. I want to be left alone to decide what something is worth. If somebody wants to smoke or dope, that's their problem. If somebody wants or needs an abortion... I'm like you. In the end i just have to say... "If that were me.... I would want to be the one to decide." and leave it at that. Facts are Facts. Don't try to tell me that something can be looked at "relative to the situation." Only if you stand for nothing. And so forth...
LOL. Sorry, I thought the baby killing reference would be enough 😵.
Might I guess that your a conservative Mike? As you yourself acknolodged each side will always see the other as much worse than it actually is. It would be nice if someone who considers themselves a strong liberal could define both sides of the equation as they see it. While I tend to be l ...[text shortened]... way, it's just that I don't feel I know enough about most issues to gamble the shearing shed).
19 Aug 03
1 edit
Originally posted by PhlabibitIt's a little known fact that all the 'convicts' first sent off to settle Australia were actually all the bright, witty, coordinated, charming, and unfailingly amusing Brits who were, out of raw jelousy, framed and exiled by the rest of the poms in an attempt to make themselves look a little better, and perhaps even help them find a girlfriend. Unfortunately their plan went awry when it was discovered that their now banished countrymen happened to be the only ones who could play a decent game of cricket.
Why pick on US? Geeeeeesh!
Rather than put all you misfits and criminals in Australia... England should have gone a bit farther and sent you all to the south pole!
Mate!😛
19 Aug 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWyYou sound more Libertarian than classicly conservative. The full-blooded conservatives do not want free-market economies, they want select sectors (agriculture, defense, aerospace) heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars, while simultaneously touting the benefits of the free market to their foreign competitors. You seem to have more faith in the "invisible hand" of the market than do your conservative contemporaries. Additionally, your social policies are anything but conservative. Your guiding philosophy seems to be: "Stay the hell out of my business", and I assume that you find the recent expansion of intelligence gathering powers via the PATRIOT act to be obscene. It your desire for privacy extends to the bedroom and the medical examination room, then you are anything but a social conservative, but a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian.
Yea, I guess I would best be described as a "Torn Conservative". I want nothing more than that the human race expand to the astroid belt and build the next human civilization. Earth is a nice nest, but it will only support "consumer progress" for about another hundred years. If we're not out where the resources and energy are by then, well... then ...[text shortened]... g can be looked at "relative to the situation." Only if you stand for nothing. And so forth...