Paul Berman

I watched an hour long interview with Paul Berman on CSpan BookNotes late sunday evening. I was struck with a couple of his ideas and thought i would pass them on here.

First... The entire 19th century was a time when WESTERN civilization was developing and implementing the notion of liberalism. He described this in a beautiful way, and i shall paraphrase here...

True 19th century liberalism allowed for the idea that each of us have many 'chambers' in our minds. These might, or might not align with the beliefs of other people, but IT DOESN'T MATTER. A Liberal mind is able to accept these differences with equinimity and peace in their being, knowing that the world doesn't end if others hold different ideas than their own. Many chambers of thought... each happy when it recognizes a like chamber in another mind, but not agitated when others reject or refute those ideas.

For some reason, the vision of a many chambered mind seemed like a very powerful one, and one we should try to aquire and use.

He then went on to describe WW 1 as a turning point where many, many utopian movements.... defined as at once a return to an idyllic time while maintaining a modern world view sprang into existence. A brief list follows.

The soviet union wanted to return to a state of the perfect peasant, while leading the world in technological development.

Franco, wanted a return to 'the perfect Catholic state' of the sixteenth century, while moving spain into leadership of a modern europe.

Italy went so far in it's yearning for the past that Mussilini reorganized his military around centurions while all the time providing the best new modern equipment.

Hitler and the return to Arian perfection of the past, leading the world in all things.

France and the Exreme Rightists movement, Japan and it's return to the glory of Samurai honor... and several more... all in the first two decades of the 20th century.

Each of these Utopian movements failed... but the WAY they failed is truely amazing. Each eventually destroyed itself because THEY DECLARED WAR ON 19th CENTURY LIBERALISM, AND LOST! The philosophy upon which ALL were founded REJECTED THE MANY CHAMBERED MIND. They each insisted on a single Granite, Monolithic Mind, With a single chamber of ideas. Each movement strove to destroy 19th century Liberalism. And they all had one other thing in common... They all were obsessed with a death cult. Every one of these Utopian movements killed for the sake of killing... and stressed suicide for it's followers if and when defeat approached. These killings had NO... ZERO... meaning or purpose. Weird.

Berman then points out that what we see in the middle east as well as Al Quaida , etc... are all of this same form. They are all Utopian efforts , striving to return to the glory of the Caliphy of the 7th century while insisting on leading the world in modernity. Even Osama Bin Laden! Berman pointed out Bin Laden's insistence on appearing on video and tv surrounded by modern radios and vehicles, dressed in 7th century garb after the World Trade center bombings... Also, and this is the scarry part. These utopian movements Wahabeism , etc... are all deeply into the same cult of death as the rest of the anti-liberal movements of this century.

I felt the most chilling moment of the interview was when asked What can we do... what can we say to these terrorists, then to stop the killing? and Berman paused and struggled. He finally said... Nothing. They don't want to talk. They don't want to reason. They just want non-believers dead.


I ordered Bermans book... Terror and Liberalism this morning... As soon as i have it in hand i will report back on any new ideas contained therein...

Here's to a hope that we all may have many chambered minds and glory in that fact. Mike

Well, not sure about the many chambered mind or 19th century liberalism bit, but one thing's for sure: people are different so expecting millions of people to agree is a recipe for disaster.
The Nazis were defeated because the started wars left, right and centre and succeeded spectacularly in uniting almost everyone against them.
I think, sadly, he is right when he says there is nothing we can do: you can't change the mind of a fundamentalist or idealist.

Originally posted by Varg
[b]Well, not sure about the many chambered mind or 19th century liberalism bit,

Getting back to unfinished business... I did finish this book and it is a great read. If you want to trace the development of the wahabe movement from it's origins in the sixties in Egypt, to it's current form throughout the world, this is the book to read. very good stuff...

I am now waiting for a book by Jason Fodeman entitled 'How To Destroy A Village... What the Clintons Taught A Seventeen-Year-Old Student"

It looks to be interesting as well... Jason is now 18 years old and a Sophomore at John Hopkins (sp?)... very interesting interview at his home town library on BookTV...

I might suggest that the idea of a 'return' to a previous ideal sate (or an improvement on a previous not-quite-realised ideal state) i find a lttle much to take. i suspect that the espoused ideology rarely equates to the actaul controlling ideology.

The USSR after WW1 was not so much reaching for an idealised peasant state but rather used the peasant state (15hour days, no education) as a control mechanism, not an aim per se. Similar claims could be laid at the feet of the chinese revolution.

The worst examples of Islamic states show similar tendancies: achieve control of the populous by promoting extreme social conditioning.

And then there is Billy Graham. Philosophy? Simplify thought, never question authority and provide clear and identifible enemies. Hate has always been a powerful tool of poplulous control (let us not forget the Haulocaust, McCarthy-ism, Bosnia, Rwanda etc etc etc).

I would suggest there is no real irony in the end of so-called idealistic movements, as i am not in any way convised to the honesty involved in any such pronouncement of their base ideology.

But his final point: they just want you dead. Yup. that i agree with 100%. Liberalism is often expressed as an unwillingness to face up to other ideologies that have no respect for anything you may value, and that will not act in a reasoned or humanistic manner. Every religeon teaches that it is exclusively right and all others are wrong. You cannot argue a point with someone who's faith (i.e. an unprovable, but intrinisc basis of their entire viewpoint) insists that your are an abomination.

Then again, i just drank a bottle of wine, so what do i know?
Tastey though.

Cheers all!
🙂

Originally posted by Toe
I might suggest that the idea of a 'return' to a previous ideal sate (or an improvement on a previous not-quite-realised ideal state) i find a lttle much to take. i suspect that the espoused ideology rarely equates to the actaul controlling i ...[text shortened]... e of wine, so what do i know?
Tastey though.

Cheers all!
🙂

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
Hey Toe...

You be doin' pretty damn good for a bottle o'wine.

The return was 'as a mechanism of control' in the minds of the victims. All these dictators used the 'desire of the dominated'; you view yourself as a decent fellow, hard working... fine. I give you the return to our peasant roots. "Do you remember the good old days? When... blah ...[text shortened]... it.

Cheers Yer'seff... Gunna go get another beer...

Good Post by the way...

Originally posted by kyngj
StarValley, you should check out "the Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker as a good antidote to utilitarian/totalitarian-ism. A good read, and he does a good job of trying to explain the thinking behind the Utopian movements of the 20th Century, and why they all went so badly wrong. I don't agree with everything in there, but he certainly has a knack for argument....

Joe