In UK politics, 'red' and 'blue' usually mean left-wing and right-wing respectively. I recently discovered that the colours are the other way round in the States: blue for liberal and red for conservative (though they do use 'pinko' to mean far-left; in the UK pink is used jokingly to mean a watered down version of red). Anyone know how these colours came about? If you're not from the US or UK, what colours do you use in your country? I know that Germany has red for left and black for right, for example.
NB: I'm not trying to spark a debate about the relative merits of left- and right-wing approaches, there are enough threads which have turned into that.
There is an old socialist song called 'Red Flag' which was, until recently, the anthem for the Labour Party.
I think they decided not to use it a few years back, but I'm sure I heard they sang it again at last year's conference.
PS. The same tune has been used in the US to create the popular festive song 'Christmas Tree'.
Originally posted by VargThe tune of the Red Flag is a German xmas carol, which is also popular in the US as the Christmas Tree. I'm not sure of the German name (tanenbaur??).
There is an old socialist song called 'Red Flag' which was, until recently, the anthem for the Labour Party.
I think they decided not to use it a few years back, but I'm sure I heard they sang it again at last year's conference.
PS. The same tune has been used in the US to create the popular festive song 'Christmas Tree'.
At the labour party, they sang:
'The people's flag is deepest pink,
Its not as red as some folk think'. 🙂
I don't know when they last sang it (I'd be surprised if they did last year).
I'm not sure of the origin of the red flag as a socialist emblem - it was used in the French Revolution, so it goes back a long way.
There's also black flags for anarchists, green for, well, Greeen.
Originally posted by RedmikeProbably 'tenenbaum'? (I think 'baum' = tree).
The tune of the Red Flag is a German xmas carol, which is also popular in the US as the Christmas Tree. I'm not sure of the German name (tanenbaur??).
At the labour party, they sang:
'The people's flag is deepest pink,
Its not as red as some folk think'. 🙂
I don't know when they last sang it (I'd be surprised if they did last year).
I'm not ...[text shortened]... o it goes back a long way.
There's also black flags for anarchists, green for, well, Greeen.
As for the Labour Party conference, it mentions it here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3149566.stm
"It ended as billed - opera singer Suzannah Clarke leading Labour delegates first in The Red Flag and then in Jerusalem after a barnstorming speech from John Prescott."
And here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3159070.stm
"It was followed by an operatic version of the Red Flag (the first time it had ended a Labour conference since 1999) and Jersusalem, neither of which Mr Prescott sang along to."
Good old Prezza!
Originally posted by VargThere you go. I used to be in the labour party, and I thought I'd seen the last singing of the red flag. I'm surprised, but not that Prescott didn't sing along. I'd be surprised if anyone in the leadership knew the words. How these people could sing 'though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll keep the red flag flying here' with a straight face is beyond me.
Probably 'tenenbaum'? (I think 'baum' = tree).
As for the Labour Party conference, it mentions it here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3149566.stm
"It ended as billed - opera singer Suzannah Clarke leading Labour delegates first in The Red Flag and then in Jerusalem after a barnstorming speech from John Prescott."
And here:
http://news. ...[text shortened]... ce since 1999) and Jersusalem, neither of which Mr Prescott sang along to."
Good old Prezza!
And then Jerusalem! Don't know much of the words of this, but its hardly helpful to sing of England's green and pleasant lands - they're supposed to represent Scotland and Wales as well....
This is what it says on: http://www.newyouth.com/archives/theory/faq/red_flag.asp
Today the red flag represents the people, the workers and peasants, it was prevalent during the October revolution and the Spanish civil war. But it's origins go back a lot further than that!
The song "The Red Flag" epitomizes what it stands for (sung to the tune of "Oh Tannenbaum" (Oh Christmas Tree)
The Peoples' flag is deepest red,
it's shroaded oft' our martryed dead.
And 'ere their limbs grow stiff and cold,
their heart's blood dyed its every fold.
So raise the scarlet standard high,
beneath its shade we'll live and die.
'Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
we'll keep the red flag flying here.
Very cool, but it doesn't stop there - and we don't just meant the extra verses! The first time the red flag was used politically was in His Britannic Majesty's fleet in the 18th Century. The sailors struck for better conditions, threw a few of the more repressive officers overboard and raised the red flag to show their defiance. They won the strike and the King capitulated, but later they went back on their word about no reprisals and many of the "ringleaders" were hanged.
But the red flag even predates this, in the Carribean in the 17th century there was a serious traffic in gold and many many pirates. Amongst the most vicious were the all-female pirate ships (this is true!). When they went to raid a ship they would fly their battle flag. I'm sure everybody has heard of the "Jolly Roger" skull-and-crossbones style pirate flag, but actually their flag was blood-red and Jolly Roger is a derivation of the French "Jolie Rougier", for these pirates were Red and Beautiful!
Categorizations are supposed to be cleverly done so that there is as little left over as possible, and I don't think the 'left-wing/right-wing' thing does it too well. There is no reason why people couldn't be categorized politically in a more comprhensive way, since we've got a whole spectrum of colors, a denumerable infinity of dimensions, and untold hours of media exposure with which to defame those of other political beliefs. And those people who say ''I'm socially liberal but fiscally conservative'' could be stuck with a fuschia (or mauve) flag 😉.
Originally posted by royalchickenThis is true; but given that the left/right classification exists I'm asking about the colours, not whether it is an adequate classification in the first place.
Categorizations are supposed to be cleverly done so that there is as little left over as possible, and I don't think the 'left-wing/right-wing' thing does it too well. There is no reason why people couldn't be categorized politically in a more comprhensive way, since we've got a whole spectrum of colors, a denumerable infinity of dimensions, and u ...[text shortened]... socially liberal but fiscally conservative'' could be stuck with a fuschia (or mauve) flag 😉.
Doesn't red sometimes mean Communist in the States, as it does here? If so, why are the Republicans generally labelled 'red'? Is this a hangover from the days when the Republicans were the more left-wing of the parties?
Originally posted by AcolyteWhat? When have the Republicans EVER been the more left wing of the parties? Even going back to the days of Abraham Lincoln, I don't think they've ever been thought of as being more left wing, or even more liberal. At least not in the contemporary use of the word.
This is true; but given that the left/right classification exists I'm asking about the colours, not whether it is an adequate classification in the first place.
Doesn't red sometimes mean Communist in the States, as it does here? If so, why are the Republicans generally labelled 'red'? Is this a hangover from the days when the Republicans were the more left-wing of the parties?
Originally posted by Acolyte''Better dead than Red.'' 😕
This is true; but given that the left/right classification exists I'm asking about the colours, not whether it is an adequate classification in the first place.
Doesn't red sometimes mean Communist in the States, as it does here? If so, why are the Republicans generally labelled 'red'? Is this a hangover from the days when the Republicans were the more left-wing of the parties?
First, red only became associated with Communism after the Russian revolution (TTBOMK). 1917 is well after the Republican party had any attributes which could be characterized as left-wing.
However, the Republican party was never ''left-wing'', or even more ''left-wing'' than the Democratic party. The confusing bit is that a big part of the original Republican platform was an end to the spread of slavery. They were never officially anti-slavery for ideological reasons; that the slaves were officially freed by an (illegal act of) a Republican president has more to do with Lincoln's bid for re-election in 1864 combined with the political boost of the first real Northern victory in the Civil War. This is confusing because we might consider freeing slaves to be a ''liberal'' or ''leftist'' thing to do, which is false (it is just a sensible and nice thing to do).
However, the epithets ''left-'' and ''right-wing'' usually have more economic connotations, and the Republican party has a long history of conservative economic policy and traditionally favors lower taxes and smaller federal government. In fact, most major government expenditure, including most war, occurs during Democratic administrations.
On a side note, the Bush II administration is very much in conflict with the standard Republican platform, as the federal government is very large and expensive at the moment. As far as presidential administrations, I think of Calvin Coolidge as having perhaps the most ''standard Republican'' one, but my knowledge of all this is very limited.
Originally posted by rwingettSo are you saying that in the days of Abraham Lincoln, the Democrats were the more left-wing? I'm not saying either was a party of the left, but surely they had some difference of opinion on this score.
What? When have the Republicans EVER been the more left wing of the parties? Even going back to the days of Abraham Lincoln, I don't think they've ever been thought of as being more left wing, or even more liberal. At least not in the contemporary use of the word.