I'll quote the rule below. In 9.2(a), you claim the draw when you know that your NEXT move WILL MAKE the 3rd repetition of a position. On this site, you check the "Claim Draw" box and submit a move.
However, for 9.2(b), the player is claiming that the 3rd repetition HAS JUST APPEARED. There's no requirement to make a move. How is that situation handled on this site?
Note that 9.2(a) and (b) are NOT equivalent--you could have a 3rd position present itself after your opponent's move, but no move of yours will create a different position that is repeated a third time. Yet, the site ALWAYS asks you to make a move to claim the draw. Does the site analyze BOTH the 9.2(a) scenario and the 9.2(b) scenario when you click the "Claim Draw" box and make a move?
Thanks.
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9.2
The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):
a.
is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
b.
has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
Originally posted by MontyMooseThe FAQ does not cover the specific situation I've described. For EVERY "claim draw" situation on this site, you are required to make a move. This is how 9.2(a) works. For 9.2(b), you do not make a move, you just claim the draw, because you are claiming that the CURRENT situation is the 3rd repetition of a position, NOT the NEW position that would be created with YOUR next move. I am asking how this site deals with that scenario.
Under "Help" (above) see the FAQ.
FAQ
It would also be good if the "claim draw" also cover lack of mating material. Perhaps it does already. If not, it should.
Another draw scenario is when the opponent doesn't aim for a win despite superiour mating material. I've seen K+Q vs K where the queen visits every square with no intention to win by mate until the 50th move. To whow off? To harass the opponent? But this unsportly behaviour cannot be handle with automatics, only by a game moderator, so perhaps this gous outside the intention of this thread.
Originally posted by C J HorseIn OTB it does.
Your opponent is being unsporting, and certainly more than a bit of an arse, but that doesn't automatically make it a draw.
FIDE rule 12.6 "It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever."
Edit: I've been in a tournament as a spectator. At on table one was in short of time, the other made moves with no intent to win the game, but to win by time. This game in particular became a draw as a decision by the arbiter.
Surely that doesn't cover that sort of annoyance? I couldn't say "the way you pick up your pawns is annoying me, so I claim a draw". I thought that rule dealt with physical distractions, like tapping your fingers or rocking about in your seat?
Edit: Your edit was made while I was composing. Who was winning on material in that game?
Originally posted by HolyTCorrect. As far as I know 3-fold draw claims must include a move, not just the intention to make one to form the same position. From the FAQ: A draw can only be claimed along with a move that contributes to a repetition. Claiming after the repetition has occurred is not possible, unless the same position can be repeated again on a future move.
...For EVERY "claim draw" situation on this site, you are required to make a move...
So basicly 9.2b does not exist her at RHP, correct?
Originally posted by C J HorseThe Annoyance Rule may be handy when your opponent is deliberately annoying you. However, if the arbiter doesn't agree with you, you yourself in turn can be punished.
Surely that doesn't cover that sort of annoyance? I couldn't say "the way you pick up your pawns is annoying me, so I claim a draw". I thought that rule dealt with physical distractions, like tapping your fingers or rocking about in your seat?
Edit: Your edit was made while I was composing. Who was winning on material in that game?
This rule also applies when a draw offer is offered to often. It is sufficient to be annoyed, and that's it. I myself had a arbiter intervention when I had a MP3-player with earplugs on low volume. My opponent felt annoyed by this. I was lucky, i only got a warning. However, if I persisted then the arbiter might...
Back to the case with the opponent not playing to win: The rule 10.2(a) says "If the arbiter agrees the opponent is making no effort to win the game by normal means, or that it is not possible to win by normal means, then he shall declare the game drawn." and is applied when only minutes is left of the game by either player.
(An acronym for 'arbiter' is 'A Bit Err'. Sometimes true.)
Originally posted by MontyMooseYes, you understand correctly. That's what I am pointing out. BUT possibly the site engine is programmed like this: If you have a 9.2(b) situation (3rd rep of a position has just occurred), you click "claim draw" and make a move. Even if YOUR move doesn't create a 3rd repetition of a position, the site checks the PREVIOUS position also and awards the draw.
So basicly 9.2b does not exist her at RHP, correct?
Does anyone know if that is the case? Admins?
Originally posted by HolyTAgain from the faq: ...A draw can only be claimed along with a move that contributes to a repetition...
Even if YOUR move doesn't create a 3rd repetition of a position, the site checks the PREVIOUS position also and awards the draw
The 2 or 3 times I have claimed the draw here at RHP, I made a move that brought about at least a three-fold position repetition and at the same time, claimed the draw.
9.2(b) draw valid for White to claim after 44 ... Kf3 but 9.2(a) claim not valid:
- 8
- a
- 7
- b
- 6
- c
- 5
- d
- 4
- e
- 3
- f
- 2
- g
- 1
- h
| 1. | d4 | d5 |
|---|---|---|
| 2. | c4 | c6 |
| 3. | Nb1c3 | dxc4 |
| 4. | e4 | b5 |
| 5. | e5 | f6 |
| 6. | a4 | fxe5 |
| 7. | dxe5 | Qd8xd1 |
| 8. | Nc3xd1 | e6 |
| 9. | axb5 | cxb5 |
| 10. | Nd1c3 | Bc8d7 |
| 11. | Bf1e2 | Bf8b4 |
| 12. | Bc1d2 | Bb4xc3 |
| 13. | bxc3 | Nb8c6 |
| 14. | Ng1f3 | a5 |
| 15. | O-O | Ng8e7 |
| 16. | Nf3d4 | Nc6xe5 |
| 17. | Be2f3 | Ra8a7 |
| 18. | Rf1b1 | Ne5xf3 |
| 19. | gxf3 | O-O |
| 20. | Nd4xb5 | Bd7xb5 |
| 21. | Rb1xb5 | a4 |
| 22. | Rb5b4 | a3 |
| 23. | Rb4xc4 | Rf8xf3 |
| 24. | Rc4e4 | a2 |
| 25. | Re4xe6 | Ne7d5 |
| 26. | c4 | Nd5c3 |
| 27. | Bd2xc3 | Rf3xc3 |
| 28. | Re6c6 | Rc3b3 |
| 29. | Rc6c8 | Kg8f7 |
| 30. | c5 | Rb3b1 |
| 31. | Ra1xb1 | axb1=Q |
| 32. | Kg1g2 | Qb1c1 |
| 33. | Rc8c6 | Ra7a5 |
| 34. | Rc6c7 | Kf7f6 |
| 35. | Rc7c6 | Kf6f5 |
| 36. | Rc6c7 | Qc1g5 |
| 37. | Kg2f1 | Kf5e4 |
| 38. | Rc7b7 | Ra5xc5 |
| 39. | h4 | Qg5g4 |
| 40. | Rb7b4 | Kf3 |
| 41. | Rb1 | Kf4 |
| 42. | Rb4 | Kf3 |
| 43. | Rb3 | Kf4 |
| 44. | Rb4 | Kf3 |
| 45. | Rb3 |
In the above game, the same position occurs after Black's 40th, 42nd, and 44th moves. In order to claim a 9.2(b) draw, White simply makes the claim--WITHOUT moving--when it is his turn to make his 45th move. Move 45 never actually would occur in this case. White does not have to declare any move. Indeed, if White declares his intent to move 45 Rb3+, he cannot make a 9.2(a) claim, because the position after 45 Rb3+ is not a 3rd repetition.
What would happen on this site if White wanted to make a 9.2(b) claim? He would have to enter a move, but no move available creates a 3rd repetition after White's 45th move. But, according to 9.2(b), he should get the draw. Would this site check that condition, or would it only make the 9.2(a) check and say that the FOLLOWING position would not be a 3rd repetition?
Admins, please respond! (Maybe I'll post this in "Site Ideas" if I get no answer or if the answer is that the site does not check.) Thanks to all.