Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Help Forum

Help Forum

  1. Standard member Impala03
    Attire Advisor
    07 Aug '04 21:49
    I was wondering if there was anything being done about computer use to assist play. Do games get investigated?
  2. Standard member Exy
    Damn fine Clan!
    07 Aug '04 21:52 / 1 edit

    (RHP) RedHotPawn.com (and associated brands) Terms of Service
    1. ACCEPTANCE OF TERMS
    RHP provides its service to you, subject to the following Terms of Service ("TOS&quot, which may be updated by us from time to time without notice to you. You can review the most current version of the TOS at any time at http://www.redhotpawn.com/myhome/termsofservice.php.


    2. DESCRIPTION OF SERVICE
    RHP currently provides users with an interface for conducting online correspondence chess,and includes, various communications tools such as messaging and forums. (The "Service&quot. You also understand and agree that the Service may include advertisements and that these advertisements are necessary for RHP to provide the Service. You also understand and agree that the service may include certain communications from RHP, such as service announcements and administrative messages. These communications are considered part of RHP membership and you will not be able to opt out of receiving them. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, any new features that augment or enhance the current Service shall be subject to the TOS. You understand and agree that the Service is provided "AS-IS". You are responsible for obtaining access to the Service and that access may involve third party fees (such as Internet service provider). You are responsible for those fees, including those fees associated with the display or delivery of advertisements. In addition, you must provide and are responsible for all equipment necessary to access the Service.
    3. YOUR REGISTRATION OBLIGATIONS
    In consideration of your use of the Service, you represent that you are of legal age to form a binding contract and are not a person barred from receiving services under the laws of the United States or other applicable jurisdiction. You also agree to :

    (a) You will not create more than one account.

    (b) You will not use chess software, chess computers or consult any third party to assist you in any game (unless expressly agreed prior to any game). Chess books and databases can be consulted during play

    (c) You may not threaten or harass other users of this Service.
    4. RHP PRIVACY POLICY
    Registration Data and certain other information about you is subject to our Privacy Policy. For more information, see our full privacy policy at http://www.redhotpawn.com/myhome/privacystatement.php.
    5. MEMBER ACCOUNT, PASSWORD AND SECURITY
    You will receive a password and account designation upon completing the Service's registration process. You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of the password and account, and are fully responsible for all activities that occur under your password or account. You agree to (a) immediately notify RHP of any unauthorized use of your password or account or any other breach of security, and (b) ensure that you exit from your account at the end of each session. RHP cannot and will not be liable for any loss or damage arising from your failure to comply with this Section 5.
    6. MEMBER CONDUCT
    You understand that all information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages or other materials ("Content&quot, whether publicly posted or privately transmitted, are the sole responsibility of the person from which such Content originated. This means that you, and not RHP, are entirely responsible for all Content that you post, email, transmit or otherwise make available via the Service. RHP does not control the Content posted via the Service and, as such, does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of such Content. You understand that by using the Service, you may be exposed to Content that is offensive, indecent or objectionable. Under no circumstances will RHP be liable in any way for any Content, including, but not limited to, for any errors or omissions in any Content, or for any loss or damage of any kind incurred as a result of the use of any Content posted, emailed, transmitted or otherwise made available via the Service.

    You agree to not use the Service to:

    Post, email or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

    Harm minors in any way;

    Impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, RHP staff, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity;

    Forge headers or otherwise manipulate identifiers in order to disguise the origin of any Content transmitted through the Service;

    Post, email or otherwise make available any Content that you do not have a right to make available under any law or under contractual or fiduciary relationships (such as inside information, proprietary and confidential information learned or disclosed as part of employment relationships or under nondisclosure agreements);

    Post, email transmit or otherwise make available any Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights ("Rights&quot of any party;

    Post, email or otherwise make available any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation.

    Post, email or otherwise make available any material that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment;

    Interfere with or disrupt the Service or servers or networks connected to the Service, or disobey any requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks connected to the Service;

    Intentionally or unintentionally violate any applicable local, state, national or international law, including, but not limited to, regulations promulgated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, any rules of any national or other securities exchange, including, without limitation, the New York Stock Exchange, the American Stock Exchange or the NASDAQ, and any regulations having the force of law;

    "Stalk" or otherwise harass another; or

    Collect or store personal data about other users.

    You acknowledge that RHP may not pre-screen Content, but that RHP shall have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to refuse or move any Content that is available via the Service. Without limiting the foregoing, RHP shall have the right to remove any Content that violates the TOS or is otherwise objectionable. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content. In this regard, you acknowledge that you may not rely on any Content created by RHP or submitted to RHP, including without limitation information in RHP forums, and in all other parts of the Service.

    You acknowledge, consent and agree that RHP may access, preserve, and disclose your account information and Content if required to do so by law or in a good faith belief that such access preservation or disclosure is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process; (b) enforce the TOS; (c) respond to claims that any Content violates the rights of third-parties; (d) respond to your requests for customer service; or (e) protect the rights, property, or personal safety of RHP, its users and the public.

    You understand that the technical processing and transmission of the Service, including your Content, may involve (a) transmissions over various networks; and (b) changes to conform and adapt to technical requirements of connecting networks or devices.
    7. SPECIAL ADMONITIONS FOR INTERNATIONAL USE
    Recognizing the global nature of the Internet, you agree to comply with all local rules regarding online conduct and acceptable Content. Specifically, you agree to comply with all applicable laws regarding the transmission of technical data exported from the United States or the country in which you reside.
    8. CONTENT SUBMITTED OR MADE AVAILABLE FOR INCLUSION ON THE SERVICE
    RHP does not claim ownership of Content you submit or make available for inclusion on the Service. However, with respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Service, you grant RHP the following world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive license(s) for RHP to use such Content for the purpose of promoting the RHP service.
    9. INDEMNITY
    You agree to indemnify and hold RHP, and its subsidiaries, affiliates and other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of Content you submit, post, transmit or make available through the Service, your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the TOS, or your violation of any rights of another.
    10. NO RESALE OF SERVICE
    You agree not to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, trade, resell or exploit for any commercial purposes, any portion of the Service (including your RHP account), use of the Service, or access to the Service.
    11. GENERAL PRACTICES REGARDING USE AND STORAGE
    You acknowledge that RHP may establish general practices and limits concerning use of the Service, including without limitation the maximum number of days that messages, postings, games or other Content will be retained by the Service, the maximum number of messages that may be sent from or received by an account on the Service, the maximum size of any email message that may be sent from or received by an account on the Service, the maximum disk space that will be allotted on RHP's servers on your behalf, and the max
  3. Standard member Phlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    07 Aug '04 21:53
    Originally posted by Impala03
    I was wondering if there was anything being done about computer use to assist play. Do games get investigated?
    If you are worried about anyone in the top 20 or so using computers.. don't. They can all beat any computer like fritz or CM9K etc.

    Other than that, some people do use them, but they can't beat the top players here... and the top players here can pretty much tell if someone is using a computer by the style of play.

    If you think someone uses a computer, don't play them anymore. It is very hard to prove. Let them inflate their ratings, and live with the guilt.

    P-
  4. 08 Aug '04 08:33
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    If you are worried about anyone in the top 20 or so using computers.. don't. They can all beat any computer like fritz or CM9K etc.

    P-
    Worrying about computer use is probably a waste of time, but I would have to disagree with your statement. Kasparov, Kramnik, Gelfand, Ivanchuk, and many other of the top grandmasters in the world can lose to Fritz (and even CM9K has beaten several GMs), but the top 20 at RHP can beat them?? If a Fritz program were allowed an account at RHP, it would easily be the best, or just right at the top, in the rankings here. One thing a good player CAN do is often recongnize when he or she is being beaten by a program.
  5. Donation mwmiller
    RHP Member No.16
    08 Aug '04 14:03
    The bottom line is, most of the people here play an honest game.

    If you have reason to suspect someone of cheating, just send the administrators a feedback or private message and give them details. Let them deal with it.

    regards, Marc
  6. Standard member Phlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    08 Aug '04 14:04
    Originally posted by AsianRose
    Worrying about computer use is probably a waste of time, but I would have to disagree with your statement. Kasparov, Kramnik, Gelfand, Ivanchuk, and many other of the top grandmasters in the world can lose to Fritz (and even CM9K has beaten several GMs), but the top 20 at RHP can beat them?? If a Fritz program were allowed an account at RHP, it would ea ...[text shortened]... One thing a good player CAN do is often recongnize when he or she is being beaten by a program.
    Do you have one of these programs? If you do, ask Feivel to play it non rated. He'll eat it like candy.

    P-
  7. Standard member eyeqpc
    Robbo
    08 Aug '04 15:31
    Originally posted by AsianRose
    Worrying about computer use is probably a waste of time, but I would have to disagree with your statement. Kasparov, Kramnik, Gelfand, Ivanchuk, and many other of the top grandmasters in the world can lose to Fritz (and even CM9K has beaten several GMs), but the top 20 at RHP can beat them?? If a Fritz program were allowed an account at RHP, it would ea ...[text shortened]... One thing a good player CAN do is often recongnize when he or she is being beaten by a program.
    I disagree with this statement, yeah you are right GM's can lose to CM9K and Fritz but this is probably in blitz style settings. Whereas in correspondance chess I don't think any computer program can beat a GM.
    I've certainly been beaten by both Fritz and CM9K during blitz play but in play where I have time to analyse and think my combinations I will beat them more than not.
    The times where GM's have been beaten by computer programs has always been in fast play where a computer will on the majority of occasions get the better of human players but against really good human players in correspondance play then computer programs are relatively weak. Computer programs such as Fritz and CM9K are really good at working out how to win exchanges and gaining the advantage with regards to piece value, which on most occasions will flumux any player in blitz play, but because of their inabilty to formulate gamewinning combinations and formulating a winning strategy plan will always make them beatable in correspondance play. I would say an account setup to be played as Fritz or CM9k would probably only get at best a 1850-1900 RHP rating, obviously a different story in blitz play.
  8. Standard member eyeqpc
    Robbo
    08 Aug '04 15:40
    Didn't some games get setup where Feivel was up against Fritz of CM9K, pretty sure this was arranged with Phlabibit but could be wrong, anyway if someone knows can the post the game IDs here.
    How many games were set-up and what was the outcome? I would be highly surprised if Feivel didn't beat the computer.
    Once my gameload is down I wouldn't mind someone setting up a couple of games for me against a computer program.
  9. Standard member SirLoseALot
    Shut Gorohoviy!
    08 Aug '04 16:15
    Originally posted by eyeqpc
    I disagree with this statement, yeah you are right GM's can lose to CM9K and Fritz but this is probably in blitz style settings. Whereas in correspondance chess I don't think any computer program can beat a GM.
    I've certainly been beaten by both Fritz and CM9K during blitz play but in play where I have time to analyse and think my combinations I will beat ...[text shortened]... uld probably only get at best a 1850-1900 RHP rating, obviously a different story in blitz play.
    You're quite right.Another thing that must be considered is what those engines are running on when beating GM's.When it runs on my pentium 4 with 1.60GHz and 256MB RAM with a HD that's always near full,I don't think it'll beat too many GM's,not even in faster games.

    Sir Lot.
  10. 08 Aug '04 16:31
    There have been many competitions between super-GMs and chess programs at NON blitz level. There was a computer scientist and master level player who looked at this closely as part of his Ph.D, thesis. Kramnik lost several times with classical time controls. Unlike what a lot of people think, an OTB player at a certain level has a plateau -- that is someone here at RHP who is, let's say "master" level, 2200 OTB, will not suddenly become a Kasparov given a few more hours or days of thinking. They'll be a better player for sure, but there comes a point when your natural ability ends and no matter how long you look at a position, you won't see things as deeply or as intuitively as a Polgar or Adams or another top GM. The only people who seem to be in denial about this are lower level players. If you read the comments of GMs who've actually played matches against computers, they've become extremely impressed by the dramatic increase in the quality of play. There was a pawn move in the Kramnik vs. Comps match last year that took the breath away from many because it showed a deeper level of positional play than had ever been exhibited before by a computer. If you allow chess programs and humans to have more time to analyze positions, it benefits the human side, but not enough to offset the advantage of the superior calculation that a computer has over all but the strongest players.

    I don't know who Feivel is, but if he can easily beat Fritz, whatever the time limit, I imagine he's near IM level strength.

    I myself have beaten programs when I gave them short thinking periods and allowed myself long analyses. However, if a player came to RHP and let Fritz mull over a position for an hour or two (or more) he/it would be nearly unbeatable. For sure. Fritz would be at the top without question. That is unless RHP harbors chess players with skills that they've hidden from all those GM who've lost to these programs at long time controls.

    GM Larry Christiansen has said exactly what I’ve said – when he lost against ChessMaster 9000, he remarked that even with time longer than the 2 hour time controls he probably would not have been able to get more than a draw. Yes, maybe the top players at RHP know chess better than this GM does, but I’d be surprised if that were the case.
  11. Standard member Phlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    08 Aug '04 16:31 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by eyeqpc
    Didn't some games get setup where Feivel was up against Fritz of CM9K, pretty sure this was arranged with Phlabibit but could be wrong, anyway if someone knows can the post the game IDs here.
    How many games were set-up and what was the ou ...[text shortened]... ne setting up a couple of games for me against a computer program.
    Game 434179

    Here you go eyeqpc! Yup... he was never even worried! Ever!

    We exchanged scores... and when CM9K figured he was up a pawn... Feivel laughed and said CM9K has no idea...

    And he beat the heck out of it.

    I let the computer think for hours at a time... and Feivel would make a move almost after I posted.

    You figure it out.

    P-

    Edit! Heck, Feivel was even black!

    Also, CM9K and Fritz played each other more than once... (Sir vs. Phla) and all they ever did was draw. Very boring and I don't think we'll do it again? Boring!

    Here is the game in progress, and CM9K better win this one!

    Game 400057 fritz7 plays budapest defense
  12. 08 Aug '04 16:49
    I'm sorry to be argumentative, but anyone who thinks Fritz or Shredder would have only a 1900 level at correspondence play probably has not kept up with developments in Human vs. Computer match ups. Of course, I'm not talking about running Fritz on my 4 year old computer or something similar against master level players, but cases where someone uses a newer and more powerful computer.

    This, by the way, happened on another (excellent) chess site, which I'm sure they'd not like me to mention. Very quickly a players went to the top of the standings above strong OTB and correspondence players. His victory record was astounding -- soon someone recognized he was using a program and chased him away, but the fact remained that he'd beaten all the best. The same would happen at any correspondence site, including RHP. I regret this -- I want humanity to beat the machines every time, but the days of human superiority at any time control are numbered. First blitz, then rapid, then classical. And now, I only know of IM or GM level players who sometimes win (and yet often lose or draw) against programs running at full power. Sad, but true.
  13. Standard member Phlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    08 Aug '04 16:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by AsianRose
    I'm sorry to be argumentative, but anyone who thinks Fritz or Shredder would have only a 1900 level at correspondence play probably has not kept up with developments in Human vs. Computer match ups. Of course, I'm not talking about run ...[text shortened]... e or draw) against programs running at full power. Sad, but true.
    No problems, bud. Point well made.

    Perhaps it is just me who doesn't want to think all the top players here are cheating.

    Tough call... hard to prove... I don't let them bother me, I just don't play anyone I think is cheating. I don't think the top players are cheating.

    I'd like to think anyone rated over 1450 is using a computer.... cuz I consider myself pretty good at chess! Many of my good friends here at RHP prove me wrong... but they all have nice things to say about my game and how I should be rated better.

    P-
  14. 08 Aug '04 17:00
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Do you have one of these programs? If you do, ask Feivel to play it non rated. He'll eat it like candy.

    P-
    A candy Fritz

    I prefer CM9K with a litlle habanero pepper sauce

    Feivel
  15. 08 Aug '04 17:03
    Originally posted by eyeqpc
    Didn't some games get setup where Feivel was up against Fritz of CM9K, pretty sure this was arranged with Phlabibit but could be wrong, anyway if someone knows can the post the game IDs here.
    How many games were set-up and what was the outcome? I would be highly surprised if Feivel didn't beat the computer.
    Once my gameload is down I wouldn't mind someone setting up a couple of games for me against a computer program.
    Feivel brutalized CM9K and it ran back to Phla's computer with it's tail tucked between it's legs. I drew twice against Shredder 8 (played by Meesy).

    Feivel