COMPUTER USE

I was wondering if there was anything being done about computer use to assist play. Do games get investigated?

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Originally posted by Impala03
I was wondering if there was anything being done about computer use to assist play. Do games get investigated?

If you are worried about anyone in the top 20 or so using computers.. don't. They can all beat any computer like fritz or CM9K etc.

Other than that, some people do use them, but they can't beat the top players here... and the top players here can pretty much tell if someone is using a computer by the style of play.

If you think someone uses a computer, don't play them anymore. It is very hard to prove. Let them inflate their ratings, and live with the guilt.

P-

Originally posted by Phlabibit
If you are worried about anyone in the top 20 or so using computers.. don't. They can all beat any computer like fritz or CM9K etc.

P-

Worrying about computer use is probably a waste of time, but I would have to disagree with your statement. Kasparov, Kramnik, Gelfand, Ivanchuk, and many other of the top grandmasters in the world can lose to Fritz (and even CM9K has beaten several GMs), but the top 20 at RHP can beat them?? If a Fritz program were allowed an account at RHP, it would easily be the best, or just right at the top, in the rankings here. One thing a good player CAN do is often recongnize when he or she is being beaten by a program.

The bottom line is, most of the people here play an honest game.

If you have reason to suspect someone of cheating, just send the administrators a feedback or private message and give them details. Let them deal with it.

regards, Marc

Originally posted by AsianRose
Worrying about computer use is probably a waste of time, but I would have to disagree with your statement. Kasparov, Kramnik, Gelfand, Ivanchuk, and many other of the top grandmasters in the world can lose to Fritz (and even CM9K has beaten several GMs), but the top 20 at RHP can beat them?? If a Fritz program were allowed an account at RHP, it would ea ...[text shortened]... One thing a good player CAN do is often recongnize when he or she is being beaten by a program.

Do you have one of these programs? If you do, ask Feivel to play it non rated. He'll eat it like candy.

P-

Originally posted by AsianRose
Worrying about computer use is probably a waste of time, but I would have to disagree with your statement. Kasparov, Kramnik, Gelfand, Ivanchuk, and many other of the top grandmasters in the world can lose to Fritz (and even CM9K has beaten several GMs), but the top 20 at RHP can beat them?? If a Fritz program were allowed an account at RHP, it would ea ...[text shortened]... One thing a good player CAN do is often recongnize when he or she is being beaten by a program.

I disagree with this statement, yeah you are right GM's can lose to CM9K and Fritz but this is probably in blitz style settings. Whereas in correspondance chess I don't think any computer program can beat a GM.
I've certainly been beaten by both Fritz and CM9K during blitz play but in play where I have time to analyse and think my combinations I will beat them more than not.
The times where GM's have been beaten by computer programs has always been in fast play where a computer will on the majority of occasions get the better of human players but against really good human players in correspondance play then computer programs are relatively weak. Computer programs such as Fritz and CM9K are really good at working out how to win exchanges and gaining the advantage with regards to piece value, which on most occasions will flumux any player in blitz play, but because of their inabilty to formulate gamewinning combinations and formulating a winning strategy plan will always make them beatable in correspondance play. I would say an account setup to be played as Fritz or CM9k would probably only get at best a 1850-1900 RHP rating, obviously a different story in blitz play.

Didn't some games get setup where Feivel was up against Fritz of CM9K, pretty sure this was arranged with Phlabibit but could be wrong, anyway if someone knows can the post the game IDs here.
How many games were set-up and what was the outcome? I would be highly surprised if Feivel didn't beat the computer.
Once my gameload is down I wouldn't mind someone setting up a couple of games for me against a computer program.

Originally posted by eyeqpc
I disagree with this statement, yeah you are right GM's can lose to CM9K and Fritz but this is probably in blitz style settings. Whereas in correspondance chess I don't think any computer program can beat a GM.
I've certainly been beaten by both Fritz and CM9K during blitz play but in play where I have time to analyse and think my combinations I will beat ...[text shortened]... uld probably only get at best a 1850-1900 RHP rating, obviously a different story in blitz play.

You're quite right.Another thing that must be considered is what those engines are running on when beating GM's.When it runs on my pentium 4 with 1.60GHz and 256MB RAM with a HD that's always near full,I don't think it'll beat too many GM's,not even in faster games.

Sir Lot.

There have been many competitions between super-GMs and chess programs at NON blitz level. There was a computer scientist and master level player who looked at this closely as part of his Ph.D, thesis. Kramnik lost several times with classical time controls. Unlike what a lot of people think, an OTB player at a certain level has a plateau -- that is someone here at RHP who is, let's say "master" level, 2200 OTB, will not suddenly become a Kasparov given a few more hours or days of thinking. They'll be a better player for sure, but there comes a point when your natural ability ends and no matter how long you look at a position, you won't see things as deeply or as intuitively as a Polgar or Adams or another top GM. The only people who seem to be in denial about this are lower level players. If you read the comments of GMs who've actually played matches against computers, they've become extremely impressed by the dramatic increase in the quality of play. There was a pawn move in the Kramnik vs. Comps match last year that took the breath away from many because it showed a deeper level of positional play than had ever been exhibited before by a computer. If you allow chess programs and humans to have more time to analyze positions, it benefits the human side, but not enough to offset the advantage of the superior calculation that a computer has over all but the strongest players.

I don't know who Feivel is, but if he can easily beat Fritz, whatever the time limit, I imagine he's near IM level strength.

I myself have beaten programs when I gave them short thinking periods and allowed myself long analyses. However, if a player came to RHP and let Fritz mull over a position for an hour or two (or more) he/it would be nearly unbeatable. For sure. Fritz would be at the top without question. That is unless RHP harbors chess players with skills that they've hidden from all those GM who've lost to these programs at long time controls.

GM Larry Christiansen has said exactly what I’ve said – when he lost against ChessMaster 9000, he remarked that even with time longer than the 2 hour time controls he probably would not have been able to get more than a draw. Yes, maybe the top players at RHP know chess better than this GM does, but I’d be surprised if that were the case.

Originally posted by eyeqpc
Didn't some games get setup where Feivel was up against Fritz of CM9K, pretty sure this was arranged with Phlabibit but could be wrong, anyway if someone knows can the post the game IDs here.
How many games were set-up and what was the ou ...[text shortened]... ne setting up a couple of games for me against a computer program.

Game 434179

Here you go eyeqpc! Yup... he was never even worried! Ever!

We exchanged scores... and when CM9K figured he was up a pawn... Feivel laughed and said CM9K has no idea...

And he beat the heck out of it.

I let the computer think for hours at a time... and Feivel would make a move almost after I posted.

You figure it out.

P-

Edit! Heck, Feivel was even black!

Also, CM9K and Fritz played each other more than once... (Sir vs. Phla) and all they ever did was draw. Very boring and I don't think we'll do it again? Boring!

Here is the game in progress, and CM9K better win this one!

Game 400057 fritz7 plays budapest defense

I'm sorry to be argumentative, but anyone who thinks Fritz or Shredder would have only a 1900 level at correspondence play probably has not kept up with developments in Human vs. Computer match ups. Of course, I'm not talking about running Fritz on my 4 year old computer or something similar against master level players, but cases where someone uses a newer and more powerful computer.

This, by the way, happened on another (excellent) chess site, which I'm sure they'd not like me to mention. Very quickly a players went to the top of the standings above strong OTB and correspondence players. His victory record was astounding -- soon someone recognized he was using a program and chased him away, but the fact remained that he'd beaten all the best. The same would happen at any correspondence site, including RHP. I regret this -- I want humanity to beat the machines every time, but the days of human superiority at any time control are numbered. First blitz, then rapid, then classical. And now, I only know of IM or GM level players who sometimes win (and yet often lose or draw) against programs running at full power. Sad, but true.

Originally posted by AsianRose
I'm sorry to be argumentative, but anyone who thinks Fritz or Shredder would have only a 1900 level at correspondence play probably has not kept up with developments in Human vs. Computer match ups. Of course, I'm not talking about run ...[text shortened]... e or draw) against programs running at full power. Sad, but true.

No problems, bud. Point well made.

Perhaps it is just me who doesn't want to think all the top players here are cheating.

Tough call... hard to prove... I don't let them bother me, I just don't play anyone I think is cheating. I don't think the top players are cheating.

I'd like to think anyone rated over 1450 is using a computer.... cuz I consider myself pretty good at chess! Many of my good friends here at RHP prove me wrong... but they all have nice things to say about my game and how I should be rated better.

P-

Originally posted by Phlabibit
Do you have one of these programs? If you do, ask Feivel to play it non rated. He'll eat it like candy.

P-

A candy Fritz 🙂

I prefer CM9K with a litlle habanero pepper sauce 🙂

Feivel

Originally posted by eyeqpc
Didn't some games get setup where Feivel was up against Fritz of CM9K, pretty sure this was arranged with Phlabibit but could be wrong, anyway if someone knows can the post the game IDs here.
How many games were set-up and what was the outcome? I would be highly surprised if Feivel didn't beat the computer.
Once my gameload is down I wouldn't mind someone setting up a couple of games for me against a computer program.

Feivel brutalized CM9K and it ran back to Phla's computer with it's tail tucked between it's legs. I drew twice against Shredder 8 (played by Meesy).

Feivel