Conditional moves

OK Russ, you said we had to keep bringing things up, so I make no apologies for resurrecting this item.

If it is a major problem then forget it, but if it can be introduced fairly easily then it would enhance this already excellent site.

I know, I know, flattery will get me nowhere but, in reality, it sometimes works! 🙂

Conditional moves?

Nagging does work. (But don't tell my wife)

-Russ

Originally posted by saffa73
Conditional moves?

Let us say I am white and you are black. I capture your N on f6 and your reply is obviously to recapture for example
10w. Bg5xNf6 10b. Be7xBf6
then I would send you a message with my move 10. saying
if 10b. Be7xBf6
then 11w. 0-0
My move 11 is conditional upon you playing 10b. Be7xBf6
If the proposal is acceptable then you can make your moves 10 and 11 at the same time.
If you don't want to play that move then you just carry on as normal.
The idea is to speed up games a little bit where possible.

What I don't understand is that you ask your opponent if it is acceptable? Why not make it automatic. You just fill out a form: if your opponent plays such-and-such moves, respond accordingly automatically, and otherwise play it back to you to think about another move. Or is that exactly what you mean?

Originally posted by piderman
What I don't understand is that you ask your opponent if it is acceptable? Why not make it automatic. You just fill out a form: if your opponent plays such-and-such moves, respond accordingly automatically, and otherwise play it back to you to think about another move. Or is that exactly what you mean?

In the other site I play on, they have a function called "if-then", basically their name for conditional moves. You make your move, and then if you see that his reply is obvious, you hit the if-then button. Then you enter your opponent's probable move, followed by your reply. The difference between this and traditional conditional moves, is that here your opponent doesn't know you entered a conditional move. This way you'll never tip him off if he's about to make a blunder.

there's also the case of the forced move: when your opponent only has one legal move, why wait?

So say have a 'move' button and also a forced move button: press forced move rather than move if you want RHP to check for a single legit move and force your opponent to make it. In order to stop RHP server getting clogged, discourage this being done a lot by making incorrect use of the forced move button = you loose (i.e. press forced move when it isn't and you loose).

Originally posted by Natural Science
In the other site I play on, they have a function called "if-then", basically their name for conditional moves. You make your move, and then if you see that his reply is obvious, you hit the if-then button. Then you enter your opponent's probable move, followed by your reply. The difference between this and traditional conditional moves, is tha ...[text shortened]... ered a conditional move. This way you'll never tip him off if he's about to make a blunder.

Absolutely! The conditional move(s) should never be available to the opponent until after the trigger move(s) are played. If the opponent plays a trigger move, then the system will automatically respond with the conditional move and send an e-mail if appropriate. Otherwise, if the opponent plays a different move than any of the trigger move(s), then the system will simply delete those stale conditional move(s).

I forsee the need to make doubly sure that the conditional move is the move that the player wishes to play given the trigger move. Perhaps a few confirmation messages just like when resigning.

How about allowing the player to delete their conditional moves up until the time that they are played by the opponent?

-Ray.

Originally posted by piderman
What I don't understand is that you ask your opponent if it is acceptable? Why not make it automatic. You just fill out a form: if your opponent plays such-and-such moves, respond accordingly automatically, and otherwise play it back to you to think about another move. Or is that exactly what you mean?

Yep 😉

Originally posted by Toe
there's also the case of the forced move: when your opponent only has one legal move, why wait?

So say have a 'move' button and also a forced move button: press forced move rather than move if you want RHP to check for a single legit move and force your opponent to make it. In order to stop RHP server getting clogged, discourage this being done a lot by ...[text shortened]... f the forced move button = you loose (i.e. press forced move when it isn't and you loose).

Well, the problem I see with that is it could confuse some players (beginners mostly) who left their king on one square, and now find it on another square and they have to figure out why.

Originally posted by Natural Science
Well, the problem I see with that is it could confuse some players (beginners mostly) who left their king on one square, and now find it on another square and they have to figure out why.

True; an auto ingame message "Your previous move was forced by your opponent" should do.

But the situation of a lost beginner is worse at present when the poor wee soul doesn't realise for a good week that they lost: RHP's lack of a "game lost" message or link can leave peope a bit lost: and often a parting ingame message from the victor is never seen,

Originally posted by Toe
But the situation of a lost beginner is worse at present when the poor wee soul doesn't realise for a good week that they lost: RHP's lack of a "game lost" message or link can leave peope a bit lost: and often a parting ingame message from the victor is never seen,

I think it's pretty clear: if you open the 'My Games' page you see a bright red square, next to which it says: 'You won/lost'. What do you want: popups? brr...

Originally posted by rgoudie
Absolutely! The conditional move(s) should never be available to the opponent until after the trigger move(s) are played. If the opponent plays a trigger move, then the system will automatically respond with the conditional move and send an e-mail if appropriate. Otherwise, if the opponent plays a different move than any of the trigger move(s), then the system will simply delete those stale conditional move(s).

I think there are two different animals here:

1. There's conditional moves that are usually proposted in correspondence chess to make the game goes faster. You post a move and proposes one or more lines of game to your oponent. He/she can ignore the proposed lines and answer with a move by himself, or accept one of the suggested lines and continue the game from the end of the selected line. This way, you can play 1.e4 and suggest to your oponnent 1...Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4, and, if the opponent accepts the proposed line, he/she will answer with move 3. This kind of offering must be made to the opponent.

2. Automatic offline play. This case, you think your opponent will play such-and-such moves, then you want answer it with such-and-such moves. You feed the site with the lines and your opponent will be playing with a bot, a program that automatically respond their moves with moves from a precompiled sequence of play. I think that makes sense to hide this kind of move sequences, so you opponent cannot see the traps you devised to him... >:-) (evil grin)

I think that the first "kind of animal" is one that deserves some study from the programmers at TimeForChess/RedHotPawn/ChessAtWork. Player A suggests a line of play in normal algebraic notation (or using a board, like the "analyse this game" one), and, if Player B accepts it, the line is inserted in the gama as if it has been played, and the game continues from the end of that line (e.g., if the suggested line ends with a move from player A, then it's player B time to play).

All the moves are played instantly, so the clock isn't altered (if player B has 1 hour remaining to make his move, and the line of play ends with a move from player A, then the time counts normally, othervise, the clock starts to tick for player A).

The suggestion of line of play and the accepting of it is up to the players, only (a line of play that has an illegal move is rejected 'a priori', a line of play that ends with mate or 'pat' ends the game accordingly), and the moves are inserted in the game as if they where played instantly.

About the second "kind of animal", I think that it must not be allowed. I think it defeats the purpose of the site (that is, making people spending some time playing chess). You can use the notes to save your tactics and thoughts about the game, and consult it to see if the player felt for your trap, and what to play next (you can even edit the notes during your opponent time to play).

Sorry for the "engrish".