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  1. 06 Aug '06 18:20 / 2 edits
    I've always favoured the 2Knts variation after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 which then goes 3... Nf6 But I was recently OWNED after seeing 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 I stupidly played Nf6xd5 after which white replied with Nxf7! The game continued Kxf7 Qf3+ and I had basically lost a pawn and castling priveleges.

    After looking into the better responses to 4.Ng4 I found 4...Bc5! which on chessgames.com has 287 games with an amazing score of 61.3% for black. I'm not sure what this variation is called but who here has played it?

    I'm looking for some advice on the basic principals on this move as well as any games of people who have played it or played against it. Anyone here have any comments on it?

    Also, can anyone reccommend any alternatives?


    Here is a game: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1255201
  2. 06 Aug '06 18:30
    Originally posted by ChessJester
    I've always favoured the 2Knts variation after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 which then goes 3... Nf6 But I was recently OWNED after seeing 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 I stupidly played Nf6xd5 after which white replied with Nxf7! The game continued Kxf7 Qf3+ and I had basically lost a pawn and castling priveleges.

    After looking into the better responses to 4.Ng4 I foun ...[text shortened]... d any alternatives?


    Here is a game: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1255201
    I loved facing the 4.Ng5 move on Rhp and especailly OTB.

    I have played Bc5 but it's hard to play and you have to very very accurate.

    I prefer 4...d5 5.exd5 b5!

    Larry Christianson gave a lecture on this several years ago on chess.fm and Tamburro from ICC did a very similar lecture several months ago.
  3. 06 Aug '06 18:37 / 4 edits
    6. Nxf7 is known as the Fred Liver and is a favourite of aggressive beginners everywhere. But with best play it is thought to result in a draw.

    4...Bc5 is known as the Traxler, aka Wilkes-Barre.
    I once forced a bookless Fritz8 to resign in 20 moves(!) with it (at 40 in 120mins).
    But Fritz9 plays 3. d4 rather than 3. Bc4
    I will post the game if you are interested.
  4. 06 Aug '06 18:57
    Go ahead and post please.

    Is that Wilkes-Barre as in Wilkes-Barre PA? Can you elaborate?
  5. 06 Aug '06 19:05
    Originally posted by h2eddsf3
    Go ahead and post please.

    Is that Wilkes-Barre as in Wilkes-Barre PA? Can you elaborate?
    Yes, apparently this move was played frequently by players from the Wilkes-Barre chess club.
  6. 06 Aug '06 19:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by h2eddsf3
    Go ahead and post please.

    Is that Wilkes-Barre as in Wilkes-Barre PA? Can you elaborate?
    OK, I will post it when I get home. Until then you will just have to make do with these:

    http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz58.pdf
    http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz59.pdf
    http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz60.pdf
    http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz114.pdf
    http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz115.pdf

    Yes, I think it is named after the chess club in that town.
  7. 06 Aug '06 19:17
    Thanks alot for the replies!

    4...d5 5.exd5 b5! sounds interesting, I will also definitly play 4...Bc5 in the future and see how it goes.

    Anyone have any RHP games they could post on this?
  8. 06 Aug '06 21:53
    4. ... Bc5 is a mistake which loses instantly to Nxf7, although there are a few complications to work through, white can basically just ride the material advantage home.

    I would recommend 4. ... d5 5. exd5 b5!? which leads to wild complications after 6. Bf1 (given by theory as best) Nd4 7. c3 Nxd5! 8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8. 8. Ne4 also leads to intense complications. 5. ... b5 is my favourite variation to play, but sadly I haven't had the chance to play it on RHP yet.
  9. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    06 Aug '06 21:58
    Originally posted by aenrko
    4. ... Bc5 is a mistake which loses instantly to Nxf7, although there are a few complications to work through, white can basically just ride the material advantage home.
    This isn't true at all. The best move is clearly Bxf7+. Nxf7 is thought to be great for black.
  10. 06 Aug '06 22:06
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    This isn't true at all. The best move is clearly Bxf7+. Nxf7 is thought to be great for black.
    I must be missing something then, could you post a sample variation?
  11. 06 Aug '06 22:41 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    The best move is clearly Bxf7+.
    Yeah, it's bloody obvious, innit?
    NOT

    Anyway, here is the Traxler game that h2eddsf3 requested:

    [White: Fritz8
    [Black: ThudanBlunder]
    [Result: 0-1]
    [ECO: B01]
    [Event: ShowdownattheHoedown]

    1. e4 e5
    2. Nf3 Nc6
    3. Bc4 Nf6
    4. Ng5 Bc5
    5. Nxf7 Bxf2+
    6. Kxf2 Nxe4+
    7. Kg1 Qe7
    8. Nxh8 d5
    9. exd5 Nd4
    10. d6 cxd6
    11. c3 Bg4
    12. Qa4+ Kf8
    13. cxd4 exd4
    14. Kxf2 Nd4+
    15. Kg1 Qf6
    16. h3 Qf2+
    17. Kh2 Qg3+
    18. Kg1 Bf3
    19. Bf1 Ng5!!
    20. Resigns

    .
  12. 06 Aug '06 23:00
    Originally posted by ThudanBlunder
    Yeah, it's bloody obvious, innit?
    NOT

    Anyway, here is the Traxler game that h2eddsf3 requested:

    [White: Fritz8
    [Black: ThudanBlunder]
    [Result: 0-1]
    [ECO: B01]
    [Event: ShowdownattheHoedown]

    1. e4 e5
    2. Nf3 Nc6
    3. Bc4 Nf6
    4. Ng5 Bc5
    5. Nxf7 Bxf2+
    6. Kxf2 Nxe4+
    7. Kg1 Qe7
    8. Nxh8 d5
    9. exd5 Nd4
    10. d6 ...[text shortened]... Qf6
    16. h3 Qf2+
    17. Kh2 Qg3+
    18. Kg1 Bf3
    19. Bf1 Ng5!!
    20. Resigns

    .
    After 6. ... Nxe4+ white can't play exd5, which he does on move 9. Mistake in the text?
  13. 07 Aug '06 00:20
    Yeah, thanks. I got my lines crossed. Try this:

    1. e4 e5
    2. Nf3 Nc6
    3. Bc4 Nf6
    4. Ng5 Bc5
    5. Nxf7 Bxf2+
    6. Kf1 Qe7
    7. Nxh8 d5
    8. exd5 Nd4
    9. d6 cxd6
    10. c3 Bg4
    11. Qa4+ Kf8
    12. cxd4 cxd4
    13. Kxf2 Ne4+
    14. Kg1 Qf6
    15. h3 Qf2+
    16. Kh2 Qg3+
    17. Kg1 Bf3
    18. Bf1 Ng5!!
    19. Resigns
  14. 07 Aug '06 05:23
    Originally posted by ThudanBlunder
    Yeah, thanks. I got my lines crossed. Try this:

    1. e4 e5
    2. Nf3 Nc6
    3. Bc4 Nf6
    4. Ng5 Bc5
    5. Nxf7 Bxf2+
    6. Kf1 Qe7
    7. Nxh8 d5
    8. exd5 Nd4
    9. d6 cxd6
    10. c3 Bg4
    11. Qa4+ Kf8
    12. cxd4 cxd4
    13. Kxf2 Ne4+
    14. Kg1 Qf6
    15. h3 Qf2+
    16. Kh2 Qg3+
    17. Kg1 Bf3
    18. Bf1 Ng5!!
    19. Resigns
    Thanks for clearing up why white loses on 6. Kf1 , but I don't see why white can't just play Kxf2 immediately. Any sample games in this line?
  15. 07 Aug '06 05:42
    Originally posted by aenrko
    Thanks for clearing up why white loses on 6. Kf1 , but I don't see why white can't just play Kxf2 immediately. Any sample games in this line?
    I don't know if it's better or worse than 6. Kf1, but after 6. Kxf2 black gets a dangerous attack going with Nxe4+ followed by Qh4. Here's a game I found where Black seems to be the Wilkes-Barre Chess club:

    [Event "City corr"]
    [Site "corr"]
    [Date "1931.??.??"]
    [Round "0"]
    [White "Perrine,George H"]
    [Black "City Wilkes Barre CC"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C57"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Kg1 Qh4 8.Qf1 Rf8
    9.d3 Nd6 10.Nxd6+ cxd6 11.Qe2 Nd4 12.Qd2 Qg4 0-1