1. Joined
    18 Jan '07
    Moves
    12363
    19 Jul '11 14:29
    Right now, there are two kinds of moves which reset the 50 move rule counter. These are captures and pawn moves. The reason for this choice is that those are the only two moves which cannot be undone, so after those moves, and only those moves, do we know for certain that the game is still progressing. Right?

    Wrong.

    There is another kind of move which can never be undone. Granted, it is highly unlikely that these moves are made in circumstances in which the 50 move rule could be affected, but it is conceivable, and therefore these moves should be added to the rule: the first move of any rook, so long as its king has not moved, or the first move of either king, so long as at least one of its rooks has not moved.

    Now let the nit-picking begin.

    Richard
  2. SubscriberPonderable
    chemist
    Linkenheim
    Joined
    22 Apr '05
    Moves
    653703
    19 Jul '11 14:36
    probably the execution of the rochade could be added
  3. Joined
    05 Sep '08
    Moves
    66636
    19 Jul '11 15:45
    How about if you actually castled during the 50 moves? Do you believe that the 50 moves should restart also?
  4. bedlam
    Joined
    20 Feb '11
    Moves
    6387
    19 Jul '11 16:23
    No irreversible change.
    You can still castle,or uncastle,by hand.
  5. Standard memberzakkwylder
    Mouth for war
    Burlington, KY
    Joined
    10 Jan '04
    Moves
    60764
    19 Jul '11 17:29
    In my opinion, if you've gotten to the point where the 50 move rule could come into play and you haven't moved your king and/or rooks...


    You're doing it wrong.
  6. Joined
    29 Aug '10
    Moves
    298
    19 Jul '11 22:50
    what is the logical connection between moves that can't be undone, and the 50 move rule?
  7. Standard membersundown316
    The Mighty Messenger
    The Wood of N'Kai
    Joined
    13 Dec '03
    Moves
    156184
    19 Jul '11 23:31
    Since when can any move,except an illegal one,be undone?
  8. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
    Joined
    11 Apr '07
    Moves
    92274
    19 Jul '11 23:561 edit
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Right now, there are two kinds of moves which reset the 50 move rule counter. These are captures and pawn moves. The reason for this choice is that those are the only two moves which cannot be undone, so after those moves, and only those moves, do we know for certain that the game is still progressing. Right?

    Wrong.

    There is another kind of move w ...[text shortened]... so long as at least one of its rooks has not moved.

    Now let the nit-picking begin.

    Richard
    Here's one nit-pick: a capture is no guarantee that progress is being made.

    In fact, there are some captures that are not legal specifically because no progress is being made.



    White is not permitted to play 1.Kxa1 here. The position is an immediate draw because of a FIDE rule that states the game is drawn if there is zero possibility of checkmate, even against the most unskilled counterplay. This position meets the criteria before the Queen is captured.
  9. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
    Joined
    11 Apr '07
    Moves
    92274
    20 Jul '11 00:09
    Originally posted by greenerpawn
    what is the logical connection between moves that can't be undone, and the 50 move rule?
    Moves that can't be undone indicate that the position is changing in a permanent way.
  10. Joined
    29 Aug '10
    Moves
    298
    20 Jul '11 08:46
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Here's one nit-pick: a capture is no guarantee that progress is being made.

    In fact, there are some captures that are not legal specifically because no progress is being made.

    [fen]8/1k6/8/p1p1p1p1/P1P1P1P1/8/2B5/qK6 w - - 0 1[/fen]

    White is not permitted to play 1.Kxa1 here. The position is an immediate draw because of a FIDE rule that states t ...[text shortened]... st unskilled counterplay. This position meets the criteria before the Queen is captured.
    permit me a nit-pick;

    white is permitted to capture. in fact white is forced to capture.
  11. Joined
    29 Aug '10
    Moves
    298
    20 Jul '11 08:48
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Moves that can't be undone indicate that the position is changing in a permanent way.
    Yes, I see.

    Widening the debate, are there any situations where computers have now shown that a win is possible in some specific endings where more than 50 moves are required?

    If so, should not the 50 move rule be amended to, say, an 80 move rule for that particular ending?
  12. bedlam
    Joined
    20 Feb '11
    Moves
    6387
    20 Jul '11 09:10
    Originally posted by greenerpawn
    Yes, I see.

    Widening the debate, are there any situations where computers have now shown that a win is possible in some specific endings where more than 50 moves are required?

    If so, should not the 50 move rule be amended to, say, an 80 move rule for that particular ending?
    They did that without computers having anything to do with it.Don't recall which ending(s),think Troitsky had something to do with it.
    Later they went back to the old rule.Not sure why,I think so many exceptions started popping up that it got too complicated.

    As for computers.They're currently at 'white wins in 517',and it's actually mate in 529.
    http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/diary16txt.htm
    Look at n°316
  13. Joined
    18 Jan '07
    Moves
    12363
    20 Jul '11 20:30
    Originally posted by torten
    No irreversible change.
    You can still castle,or uncastle,by hand.
    However, if you lose the right to castle, you can no longer castle in one move. That's one move which will never be possible again in that game. Hence, irreversible.

    Richard
  14. Joined
    18 Jan '07
    Moves
    12363
    20 Jul '11 20:38
    Originally posted by sundown316
    Since when can any move,except an illegal one,be undone?
    All normal moves can be undone simply by making the opposite move. Moving your queen from a4 to b3 can be undone by, the next move, moving it from b3 to a4. You could move your queen through all squares, and your opponent could be moving his through them all in a different order. You could easily avoid the 3-repetitions rule by moving in irregular patterns. The 50-move rule exists to avoid such a situation.

    Even moving out of check can be undone if your opponent first moves his checking piece back to where it was. The only moves which cannot be undone are those which permanently remove an option from that game. These moves are pawn moves, because a pawn may not move backwards; captures, because a captured piece can not reappear on the board (except through promotion, but that's a pawn move!); and, as I am arguing in this thread, moves which make castling impossible (which, as Ponderable so astutely noticed, includes all castlings themselves).

    Richard
  15. bedlam
    Joined
    20 Feb '11
    Moves
    6387
    20 Jul '11 20:39
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    However, if you lose the right to castle, you can no longer castle in one move. That's one move which will never be possible again in that game. Hence, irreversible.

    Richard
    True.Shall we contact fide? 🙂
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