01 Feb 09
1 Nxc5? This move throws away the win! "White's c-pawn cannot be advanced to the queening square without the help of the king, but this allows Black to counter by attacking the e-pawn" - Pachman.
I have yet to find a chess program that does not throw away the win! Maybe I should let them analyze longer?
01 Feb 09
Originally posted by Dana Turnmiresimple position? What's the winning line?
[fen]8/8/6k1/2p1p3/2P1P1K1/3N4/8/b7 w - - 0 1[/fen]
1 Nxc5? This move throws away the win! "White's c-pawn cannot be advanced to the queening square without the help of the king, but this allows Black to counter by attacking the e-pawn" - Pachman.
I have yet to find a chess program that does not throw away the win! Maybe I should let them analyze longer?
01 Feb 09
Originally posted by diskamylI found this position on page 385 of "The Mammoth Book of Chess" where Graham Burgess was pointing out the weaknesses of modern chess engines in actually understanding a position. He doesn't give the continuation but simply points out the winning strategy is blown by not being able to make an anti-materialistic decision. He quoted GM Pachman.
simple position? What's the winning line?
01 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34Hey, it took me a while, but I thnk I've figured it out using the old noggin!
Just beaten to it by Dana,
I was going to mention I had seen this position not long ago.
I gave a free copy of Mammoth away to Heinzcat and stumbled
on this position whilst browsing.
Don't go any further Diskamly - do yourself a great favour and
dig out the win yourself.
If White can force the Black king to move, the white king can control one of the three critical squares (f5, g5, or h5) and eventually capture Black's e-pawn. So knight to e1, then g2 and h4. The black bishop can't stop the knight without getting captured himself. Did I get it?
Edit - Oops, it's harder than I thought. I didn't notice that the black bishop can still cover the g5 square, preventing the white king from moving from h5 to g5 to get closer to the black e-pawn. But I still think the win has something to do with the white king maneuvering onto h5.
01 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Dana TurnmireI have the Mammoth Book of Chess & it is quite old you know & engines have moved on in the last 9 years since my copy was published.
I found this position on page 385 of "The Mammoth Book of Chess" where Graham Burgess was pointing out the weaknesses of modern chess engines in actually understanding a position. He doesn't give the continuation but simply points out the winning strategy is blown by not being able to make an anti-materialistic decision. He quoted GM Pachman.
I know Burgess quotes Fritz 6 as being the latest & best commercial engine.
It could of course be that 1.Nxc5 is the best move as Burgess doesn't quote the "winning" line in the book!
A modern engine may well find a draw with Black after whatever move is supposed to be the winning line...
My copy of Fritz XI gives it a +0.54 draw after 1.Nxc5 Kf6 2.Kf3 Ke7 3.Ke2 Kd6 4.Nd3 Bd4 5.Kd2 Kc7 6.Kc2 Kb6 7.Kb3 Ka5 given 1 minute per move with top 2 moves.
01 Feb 09
Originally posted by Mad RookI think once that the white king is on h5, the knight needs to maneuver onto the g4 square (which will eventually force the black king away from the black e5 pawn) without letting the bishop trade off the pieces. I'd like to think I'm at least on the right track.
Hey, it took me a while, but I thnk I've figured it out using the old noggin!
If White can force the Black king to move, the white king can control one of the three critical squares (f5, g5, or h5) and eventually capture Black's e-pawn. So knight to e1, then g2 and h4. The black bishop can't stop the knight without getting captured himself. Did I get it? ...[text shortened]... awn. But I still think the win has something to do with the white king maneuvering onto h5.
01 Feb 09
I figured out something like this:
1. Ne1 Bd4 2. Nf3 Bc3 3. Nh4+ Kf6 4. Kh5 Be1 5. Nf3 Bc3 6. Nh2 Bd4 7. Ng4+ Ke6 8. Kg6 Bg1 9. Nh6 Bd4 10. Nf7 Be3 11. Ng5+ Kd6 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Nf7+, winning:
eg 13. ..Ke7 14. Nxe5 Kd6 15. Nd3 followed by e5+ etc.
If I'd come across the starting position in a game, I'd probably have taken the c5-pawn.
01 Feb 09
Originally posted by schakuhrwhat about 11...Ke7?
I figured out something like this:
1. Ne1 Bd4 2. Nf3 Bc3 3. Nh4+ Kf6 4. Kh5 Be1 5. Nf3 Bc3 6. Nh2 Bd4 7. Ng4+ Ke6 8. Kg6 Bg1 9. Nh6 Bd4 10. Nf7 Be3 11. Ng5+ Kd6 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Nf7+, winning:
[fen]8/5N2/3k4/2p1pK2/2PbP3/8/8/8[/fen]
eg 13. ..Ke7 14. Nxe5 Kd6 15. Nd3 followed by e5+ etc.
If I'd come across the starting position in a game, I'd probably have taken the c5-pawn.
01 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by clandarkfireIf 11...Ke7, then I think 12.Kf5 Kd6 13.Kf6 Bd4 (or Bf4) 14.Nf7+ wins the e5 pawn for White. And on move 13, Black can't capture the knight because the white King would still occupy a critical square (g5).
what about 11...Ke7?
Edit - The only thing I'm not sure about regarding shakuhr's exact solution is whether there's a better series of bishop moves that could cause White more problems. I'm just not strong enough to see all of the bishop variations. But I want to believe he's right - I've already bought into the general idea. 🙂
02 Feb 09
Originally posted by YugaWell then, I give up. Who's got Burgess' phone number? He's the one who put it in his book!
11...Ke7 Kf5 Bd4 Nh7 Bc3 Nf6 Bd4 Ng4 Kd6 Kf6 Kd7
and now if Nxe5+?? Kd6
White to move:
[fen]8/3k4/5K2/2p1p3/2PbP1N1/8/8/8 w - - 0 17[/fen]
I still cannot find progress - I find that Black's King can reach b4 in time...