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  1. 10 Feb '09 17:17


    The point being that after the chase (3. e5 Nd5 4. c4) the knight can retreat to c7 where it more flexible. From there it can go to d5, e6 and can support pawn advances like d5 and b5.

    Anyone seen this played before?

    Anyone want to play a set piece game from this position (with me as Black)?
  2. 10 Feb '09 17:54
    Originally posted by moteutsch
    [pgn]1. e4 c6 2. d4 Nf6!?[/pgn]

    The point being that after the chase (3. e5 Nd5 4. c4) the knight can retreat to c7 where it more flexible. From there it can go to d5, e6 and can support pawn advances like d5 and b5.

    Anyone seen this played before?

    Anyone want to play a set piece game from this position (with me as Black)?
    If, as black, you had a game that went 1. e4 Nf6 2. d4?! why wouldn't you just play 2. ... Nxe4 ?

    Of course, since you're black it's your choice to play 2. ... c6!? but what's the reasoning behind not grabbing a free central white pawn?
  3. 10 Feb '09 17:55
    I'd say, because my last move was 2... Nf6.

    The moves were 1. e4 c6 2. d4 Nf6!?
  4. 10 Feb '09 18:05
    According to my database this opening is rather weak; it gives White 48% winning odds compared to 28% for Black.
  5. 10 Feb '09 18:07
    i used that move against erice1 , and got a very cramped position
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/core/playchess.php?gameid=4236256&cbqsid=15876
  6. 10 Feb '09 18:09
    Originally posted by moteutsch
    I'd say, because my last move was 2... Nf6.

    The moves were 1. e4 c6 2. d4 Nf6!?
    Ah my mistake! My apologies. I was confused by the thread title.

    In that case, what makes you suppose that 3. e5 would be played? If it was me, I'd go for 3. Nc3. Interesting idea though.
  7. 10 Feb '09 18:09
    Originally posted by cairn
    i used that move against erice1 , and got a very cramped position
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/core/playchess.php?gameid=4236256&cbqsid=15876
    Game 4236256
  8. 10 Feb '09 18:11
    Originally posted by cairn
    i used that move against erice1 , and got a very cramped position
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/core/playchess.php?gameid=4236256&cbqsid=15876
    That is the regular Alekhine's Defense. Not what we're talking about.
  9. 10 Feb '09 18:15
    Originally posted by Meadows
    Ah my mistake! My apologies. I was confused by the thread title.

    In that case, what makes you suppose that 3. e5 would be played? If it was me, I'd go for 3. Nc3. Interesting idea though.
    After 1. e4 c6 2. d4 Nf6!? 3. Nc3 g6

    We will transpose into a modern defense type system. Assuming you don't play e5, that is, but the doubled D pawns after 1... Nd5 2 . Nxd5 are not a problem after a move like d6.

    I'd be willing to play you a game from that position, though, if you'd like.
  10. 10 Feb '09 18:22
    Originally posted by moteutsch
    [pgn]1. e4 c6 2. d4 Nf6!?[/pgn]

    The point being that after the chase (3. e5 Nd5 4. c4) the knight can retreat to c7 where it more flexible. From there it can go to d5, e6 and can support pawn advances like d5 and b5.

    Anyone seen this played before?

    Anyone want to play a set piece game from this position (with me as Black)?
    UGHHH NO!! most of the variants require you to play c5! this is a tempo killer!!
  11. 10 Feb '09 18:23
    Originally posted by moteutsch
    After 1. e4 c6 2. d4 Nf6!? 3. Nc3 g6

    We will transpose into a modern defense type system. Assuming you don't play e5, that is, but the doubled D pawns after 1... Nd5 2 . Nxd5 are not a problem after a move like d6.

    I'd be willing to play you a game from that position, though, if you'd like.
    It's certainly an interesting line and a quick check on a database assures me it's reasonably clear of theory.

    I would definitely give you a game, but at the moment I've got quite a few one the go (for me, at least). When that dies down I'll definitely play through one or two with you if you're happy to do so
  12. 10 Feb '09 18:43
    Originally posted by c guy1
    UGHHH NO!! most of the variants require you to play c5! this is a tempo killer!!
    The ideas are kind've different in this one. Instead of c5, black may have ideas of b5 and d5. And anyway, even if he were to c5, the possibilties of those thrusts and the comfortable location of the knight are worth the tempo.

    Like for example in this opening: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5!?. Black has wasted a tempo, transposing into a french structure, but the compensation is obvious (Light square bishop can go outside the pawn chain).
  13. 10 Feb '09 19:15
    My first concern would be the four pawns attack. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.c4 Nc7 (Nb6) 5.f4 although 5. ... d5 may do the trick.

    I think the major problems will come in the middlegame rather than the opening. You may find it really hard to get play.
    White can probably just make some really solid moves and make you suffer slowly.

    1.e4 c6 2.d4 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.c4 Nc7 5.Nf3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nc3 d6 9.Bf4 or 9.exd6 may be one recipe.

    I've noticed a lot of structures that seem ok in the opening have major problems later on.

    1.e4 a6 2.d4 b5 3.Nf3 Bb7 4.Bd3 e6 5.Qe2 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.a3 Nf6 8.O-O
    Be7 9.Nbd2

    would be one example. (This may not be the exact move order. I haven't looked at this in quite a while.)

    Black looks fine. It gets really hard to come up with constructive ideas in the early middlegame though.

    d5 by black closes the position and cuts out a lot of black's play.
    d6 is a target for a later e5 and Ne4 by white.
    Another white idea is dxc5, e5 and Ne4/Bg5.

    Black's queenside play doesn't really get anywhere.
    I have been slaughtered from the black side of this many times.

    All of black's opening moves look great. It's not until the middlegame that you feel the effects.

    I don't know if this is the case for your variation, but you always have to be aware.

    I hope this helps.
  14. 10 Feb '09 21:20 / 1 edit
    It seems to me, that if Black plays very carefully, he can achieve equality. It is near impossible for him to win, though.

    Edit:

    I guess playing the Caro-Kann is better. Much easier to achieve equality.