Analysis program woes

Originally posted by michael liddle
The OP has stated that he wants to improve, as we all do. In my experience, OTB play, and subsequent analysis with the opponent, is more beneficial than studying masters games. Unless it is match night, I regularly get at least 4 games in against my club colleagues. They mostly play different styles and I have gained a lot from the experience. Nothing ...[text shortened]... t all, just that I feel there would be a quicker, more marked improvement with regular OTB play.

I see, its actually quite interesting, i think Nimzo mentioned something similar, its the impression that intense OTB play makes upon ones mind, the concentration required, it cannot help but to be beneficial i reckon, although there is confusion in my own thinking, for is it not true that everyone thinks differently, that there is no 'correct method', and therefore analysis with another seems to me to be interesting but limited, although never having experienced it, i admit that this is pure conjecture and probably baseless.

Originally posted by michael liddle
You should join a club, that will give you all the OTB analysis you need.

Hi

Best advice anyone can give to someone who wants to improve.

Join a club.

You will see and pick up loads of things.
Chiefly because you will be playing one game at a time and giving
it all your attention for how long as it takes.

On here you feed the cat, watch telly, make a move, argue with someone
in a forum, make a move in a different game, talk to someone on the
phone, make a move in a different game, have a sandwich, watch more
telly, play a blunder, read an email, go back to the game and see you
have been mated.

At the club the human knows who you are and your playing strength.
He can advise face to face. You learn.

An inexperienced player running their game though a box will only get
his confidence undermined.

Some of the positions are unclear and a human will say so.
Nothing is unclear to box. It will spew out a number.

0.78. What does that mean to a player whose next move
is hanging a piece.

Some of the postions are so wretched it will start suggesting moves to
stave off a mate 16 moves away.

It does not know you are an inexperienced player who cannot see (yet)
he is lost so you are looking at these junk suggestions, not understanding
them and feeling totally inadequate.

Best move anyone can make is to join a club.

Hi Robbie.

Independant study has it's place and the stronger you get the
more it is needed but without guidance and seeing these ideas
in action OTB for immediate feedback you are nowehere near
the complete player.

I've never known anyone who joined a club who did not improve.
Some go on to be very good players.
Every great player, including todays current crop of top GM's
learned their trade from OTB play.

Edit.
Just seen your last post Robbie.

"and therefore analysis with another seems to me to be interesting but limited,"

Buddy analysis, especially with a strong partner or partners is so benficial.
The instant exchange of ideas, the passing of gained knowledge is brilliant.
I'm sure every strong OTB player on here will agree.

It's nothing like the discussions you get in the forums.

I can still remember opening lines, advice, trick shots, variations
jokes, comments... from sessions held over 30 years ago.

You must have read in a book one player commentating on what their
opponent said after the game. This is often more illuminating than a
whole page of variations.

Originally posted by michael liddle
The OP has stated that he wants to improve, as we all do. In my experience, OTB play, and subsequent analysis with the opponent, is more beneficial than studying masters games. Unless it is match night, I regularly get at least 4 games in against my club colleagues. They mostly play different styles and I have gained a lot from the experience. Nothing ...[text shortened]... t all, just that I feel there would be a quicker, more marked improvement with regular OTB play.

My experience has been the same as Michael's. I have definitely learned much from books and programs, but a club atmosphere is a great place for someone who is open-minded, has a thick skin for criticism, and is willing to listen.

Paul

My experience using computers to analyze my games is that I get more value as the computer analyzes more games. I've used Fritz for this, and I have found it helpful.

The reason a larger quantity of games is valuable is that I start to notice patterns in the analysis, and patterns to my errors and misjudgments.

A single mistake or oversight is a fluke, but when the computer points it out every time you do it, that's not a fluke- it's a hole in your learning you need to fix.

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
has a thick skin for criticism, and is willing to listen.

that alone rules out 95% of people. 🙂



regarding OP: yeah, once again I fully agree with greenpawn (and everybody else it seems). throw out the engines and just work it. engine analysis is the greatest enemy of beginner progress. engines & inability to accept criticism.

now we just wait for varenka to show up and disagree. 🙂

Hi Paul

"but when the computer points it out every time you do it."

Once.
You will only make this error once in a league match, then you pals will
spend the rest of the evening ripping the jack out of you.

You never do it again. Never.

Not only that they all you show how and when they made the same blunder
and the best remedies.
You won't get a tin toy showing you that.

Join a club.

As Paul said.
A thick skin, a williness to learn and an open mind is all that is needed.
Trying to learn chess with a computer sticks you in a rut.

(Hi WW. That last sentance will stall my mate Varenka, in 2007 his grade
was in the 1900's and 4 years later, 2011, it is still in the 1900's.) 😉

Can anyone post anything they have learned from a computer?

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Paul

"but when the computer points it out every time you do it."

Once.
You will only make this error once in a league match, then you pals will
spend the rest of the evening ripping the jack out of you.

You never do it again. Never.

Not only that they all you show how and when they made the same blunder
and the best remedies.
You won't ...[text shortened]... is still in the 1900's.) 😉

Can anyone post anything they have learned from a computer?

cut and paste.....LOL

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Can anyone post anything they have learned from a computer?

Yes. But I won't, because there's always the chance that my next opponent is lurking here and will be tipped off not to do that against me.

I will say, though, that what I learned was a. purely tactical, and b. no so much a case of "do that", as of "don't do that, and when your opponent does, don't overlook it but take advantage of the error by doing this". I didn't learn a new skill, I learned (I hope...) to avoid, and take advantage of, a blunder.
IOW, the removal of a negative habit rather than the gain of a positive one. At my level (and also at the OP's), this does help. What it won't do is make you actually a good player.

Richard

Originally posted by Ragwort
An analogy. Which improves your arithmetic? Stretching your brain to do the sum or turning on the electronic calculator?

That's a bad analogy. A calculation is one calculation, not a whole string of decisions. And crucially, when you ask the computer to do a calculation for you, it doesn't show its work. A chess program analysing a game typically does. Whether that work is useful for most players is another matter, but at least it's there to destroy the analogy.

Richard

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
That's a bad analogy. A calculation is one calculation, not a whole string of decisions. And crucially, when you ask the computer to do a calculation for you, it doesn't show its work. A chess program analysing a game typically does. Whether that work is useful for most players is another matter, but at least it's there to destroy the analogy.

Richard

I think you have missed my point and are looking too deep. The point was that you have a choice to try and work it out for yourself or ask something else. One exercises mental visualization and calculation abilities, the other exercises the muscles controlling the eyes and the index finger.

It's like railway tracks. The shiniest ones are the ones that are used the most.

The human mind is inherently lazy. It backs away from effort, especially when there is an easy alternative available, like a calculator or a chess engine.

What I learned from computers...How really bad I am at tactics and how much I should study tactics on a regular basis. (I'm lazy and most times I just want to have fun with chess. Improving isn't too high on my priority list.)

But I agree with the others that if you really want to improve, join a chess club if you can.

About computer analysis - I don't use Fritz, so I can't comment on that. I've tried the CM verbal analysis, and it just doesn't work for me. I prefer using something like Arena, which is more interactive. I can run an automatic analysis and specify a ply depth so that the engine isn't looking 16-ply deep, which I wouldn't comprehend anyway. (8-ply seems plenty for me.) Arena will generate an evaluation graph for the game. I usually then switch on the multi-PV mode of the engine, then switch on the manual analysis and go backward and forward around the blunder moves. The missed tactics are usually obvious at that point. I imagine that Fritz can probably analyze like Arena does, and I'm sure that Fritz does a better job with annotations, something that Arena is terrible at.

Hi Mad Rook

(I'm lazy and most times I just want to have fun with chess.
Improving isn't too high on my priority list.)

A wonderful honest post.
I think that sums up 90% of the lads on here.

Thank you.

Now please excuse me a minute whilst I stir up the others.

Hi Shallow Blue.

I like Ragworts analogy.
You know for a fact you will get the correct answer from a calculator.
A box only shows you what it is calculating and as it goes deeper and
deeper it assesment chops and changes.

I can show loads of Computer of errors (missing mates in two etc)
that I have gathered in my Mind v box debates from over the years.
Doubt if you can show me one error from a 50p pocket calculator.

A computer does not explain anything.
The user is seeing a series of chess moves being calculated. Nothing more.

Now Shallow Blue what follows is not just for you
but for all the other self deluded ones as well.

Don't sulk.

And as for instruction...that's a joke.
Name the most famous and instructive game of chess ever played.

Most players would say it's Morphy at the Opera.
A box will never show you that game unless you nudge it towards it
because you know it's there.


A box will always plays/suggests 8.Bxf7+ or 8.Qxb7 then consider 8.0-0 and 8.Be3.
The instructive beauty of 8.Nc3 (often given a ! by some writers)
would just pass you by.

And is 8.Bxf7+ correct?

It's all very well being a 1400 player and nicking an idea from a
computer that can beat a GM.
But you are still a 1400 player and the position it drops you in
may be beyond you.

Take the above example.
Fritz says 8.Bxf7+ Qxf7 9. Qxb7


That will appeal to any 1400 player.

"I win the Rook in the corner." End of analysis.
(and I can show you 100's of games where such calculation has happened.)

It's a variation that Morphy would have (and did) reject right away.

So some clot follows Fritz's suggestion and goes for it OTB.
Don't tell me you cannot see this happening.



I am being open-minded here.
I have often asked what has anyone really learned from a computer
and have yet to get an answer.

You play a game, you run it through box, it spots a mate in three missed
by you. What have you learned?

But none of you will be told.
You think running a game through a box for 5 minutes actually helps.
Sitting at the board for two hours and digging out the game really helps.

But that is effort, no quick fix.
So you convince yourself you are doing the right thing and what you
are doing is really going to turn you into a chess player.

I have more chance of converting a Christian into a Muslim on
the Religious Forum than I have in getting you guys to switch off your boxes.

We finish with Morphy at the Opera.

Originally posted by wormwood
that alone rules out 95% of people. 🙂



regarding OP: yeah, once again I fully agree with greenpawn (and everybody else it seems). throw out the engines and just work it. engine analysis is the greatest enemy of beginner progress. engines & inability to accept criticism.

now we just wait for varenka to show up and disagree. 🙂

I would say opening study is the biggest enemy to beginner progress...

I'm guessing most beginners run their games through fritz or whatever and gain very little from the experience, but I don't know if it is an actual detriment to their play. I think it is a just minor improvement over what they would do otherwise, which is no analysis at all.

At the 1200 level there are not a whole lot of good uses for a chess engine- maybe to spar against it in totally won positions- although I would just assume grab a friend and play them that way switching sides.

I sort of feel you don't really need to analyze with an engine until you reach such a level that your peers won't work with you and you have to pay to get a stronger player's advice. By that point however, you should be strong enough to do most of the analytical work yourself anyway.

Another danger of a chess engine for a developing player (beyond laziness of analysis) is it has a tendency to paralyze a player's attacking instincts before they can actually understand the mechanics of good defense.
Try some dodgy opposite castle position where the computer wants to shuffle around a passive bishop or something because g4 h4 h5 sac sac mate might have some 25 ply refutation. A beginner will see the computer's eval plummet after h5 and lose confidence in similar plans.

Originally posted by greenpawn34

You play a game, you run it through box, it spots a mate in three missed
by you. What have you learned?

Hallo,

it is true, a chess club, OTB games and, even better, a stronger player as teacher are most valuable to widening your view on what is going on on that funny squary thing with those cute little figures on it...

However, I am lacking all three of those. A box can fill in a bit on the stronger player part. It is quite instructive for me to see, how the box wriggles out from a position, that my opponent has already lost. If I have an idea where the others game went astray, I can start on that point and see, what somebody else would play in that situation.

So to answer that question: an analysis with a box can show you a tactical level, you are not at yet. Given you understand the position that comes out of it and why it is so much better, you can learn from that.

But I played OTB some years ago, when I was small, so I had a learning phase, which may be unreplacable by a box.

To sum it up: try a chess club for some time 🙂. Or, if that is not possible - when I visited SF, some guys were sitting at tables on the street, with a chess board at convenient range. Had to pay a dollar for a game, but I got one extra, when I won. I felt bad after some wins, it was obviously their way to earn some bucks as a homeless person. Left the money then. Will never forget that afternoon in downtown SF ('hey, watch that german play, he is good' - which is not true, when you see my games played here, but it was fun being a living prejudice (all germans are good in chess!)).

That a box can never give to you!

OP here. I suppose the novice's lament is that, to coin a phrase, "you don't know what you don't know." I was looking to a program to enhance my post-game analysis in order to assist my understanding of my losses better. I understand it may not be as effective a method as I wish it'd be. Without the luxury of being able to join a club or obtain professional mentoring, how does one overcome his own ignorance and guide himself towards growth? A poor move choice may look good to me a dozen times over, and will continue to be a stumbling point, as flawed strategies often will, until someone taps me on the shoulder and advises the "why's" behind the newer ideology. I'm seeking to learn fast, but I'm blind to my own faults, and there seems to be no shortage of methods and resources out there that one person or another will deem to be a waste of time. To where does the self-analyzer turn? Should I not try to analyze my own faults because of my own ignorance?